VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion

[VastOne]

^ Similar to discussions I have been raising on the the IRC...

I'll post some of it here...

why is arch and fedora and redhat and all the others using systemd not being blown the fuck out of the water for being such idiots for switching to systemd?

so if I am running systemd on all I do (builds, maintaining websites, support blah blah blah) does that say anything about it being worthy?

At what levels is it measured? (success or failures)

does MS shills ever question init changes... fuck no, we have the pleasure of even being in this init discussion

IMO, it shows just how open foss is... where two different directions (and more)  can be dropped in as a install and go replacement to such a massive integral part of the linux ecosystem

can replacing sysvinit with systemd really be this 'bad' if: 1:  Install replace boot up go 2: Everything I do is working just like nothing happened 3: better memory management? (or so it seems in my tests)

but all of that leads to 4: If ya (systemd) ain't breaking something, just what are you doing? (where is the direct output of what is going on under the covers with systemd)

what is another massive part of the ecosystem that had to change and did despite all the foreblowing of dooooooom? and succeeded...

It really is too bad that the license shit is there for upstart (and canonical) and Lennart is there ... it would be cool to discuss this without those alienating variables

Thoughts from v-ger, nothing more

[statmonkey]

^ Similar to discussions I have been raising on the the IRC...

I'll post some of it here...

why is arch and fedora and redhat and all the others using systemd not being blown the fuck out of the water for being such idiots for switching to systemd?

Because it works and they are satisfied that it works.  See post #39 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....49530#p1149530

so if I am running systemd on all I do (builds, maintaining websites, support blah blah blah) does that say anything about it being worthy?

Not sure I understand this one.  If you are saying if I can do my work and I don't notice systemd is even there isn't that a good thing.  Which I think is what you are asking, then yes.  So far I have been able to do all my core stuff with no issues.

At what levels is it measured? (success or failures)

It doesn't seem to be measured.  A point I raised earlier and is driving me crazy.  Perhaps the measurement is in fact your first point. Siduction, Arch, Fedora (not dumbarses that group) all have embraced it.  Isn't that success to some extent?

does MS shills ever question init changes... fuck no, we have the pleasure of even being in this init discussion

IMO, it shows just how open foss is... where two different directions (and more)  can be dropped in as a install and go replacement to such a massive integral part of the linux ecosystem

True, great point.  The fact that we can also talk about brewing our own.

can replacing sysvinit with systemd really be this 'bad' if: 1:  Install replace boot up go 2: Everything I do is working just like nothing happened 3: better memory management? (or so it seems in my tests)

I am finding the same. [edit] In a sense what better situation can we ask for? I am beginning to wonder if this is a case of so badly wanting to find something wrong with accepting it that we create the illusion that it needs to pass another test to prove it's worth.  Cue my ex-wife nodding  [/edit]

but all of that leads to 4: If ya (systemd) ain't breaking something, just what are you doing? (where is the direct output of what is going on under the covers with systemd)

It's pretty well documented.  It's just verbose, confusing because it's new and a little hard to grok because I am at least not a person who flies at this level (concerned with event monitoring and the like versus script initing). [edit]For a real in depth understanding of what it is doing see the Fedora link below.[/edit]

what is another massive part of the ecosystem that had to change and did despite all the foreblowing of dooooooom? and succeeded...

Grub was like that without the personalities involved.  Gnome 3 was like that.  Pulse Audio still is but I think in the end it has been a success.  I probably could think of others but you get it.

It really is too bad that the license shit is there for upstart (and canonical) and Lennart is there ... it would be cool to discuss this without those alienating variables

Thoughts from v-ger, nothing more

Good thoughts and well said about the license and Lennart.  Oh and here is a contrary view http://draketo.de/light/english/top-5-systemd-troubles  I have also started reading this https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd which is very informative.

[VastOne]

^ Yes, you got the gist of what I was saying about my core components and work

The link to Arch is broken (404)

The draketo 5 points is dated.. almost 3 years old now, from 2011... not sure if they are still even viable

The Fedora wiki on systemd is an eye opener.. makes it 'look' as if you would be a fool to go with anything but systemd... I am going to compare that wiki to the systemd on Arch wiki (my personal favorite of all information of all time)

[statmonkey]

^ Yes, you got the gist of what I was saying about my core components and work

The link to Arch is broken (404)

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530 works for me

The draketo 5 points is dated.. almost 3 years old now, from 2011... not sure if they are still even viable

Not sure they ever were. See the arch post re linked he addresses them

The Fedora wiki on systemd is an eye opener.. makes it 'look' as if you would be a fool to go with anything but systemd... I am going to compare that wiki to the systemd on Arch wiki (my personal favorite of all information of all time)

Agreed. Arch is mine as well I offer the Fed as an alternative. Arch more of a how to - Fed more informational.

[VastOne]

Whoever tomegun is, I want him on my team as a developer... WOW...

This is the link from the Fedora wiki I really meant to say about being an eye opener.. the proverbial Why systemd?

[statmonkey]

Whoever tomegun is, I want him on my team as a developer... WOW...

Yes he hit that out of the park.

This is the link from the Fedora wiki I really meant to say about being an eye opener.. the proverbial Why systemd?

LOL see post #46 in this thread 

[VastOne]

I'll go even further...

With what tomegun provided in post #39 there and that link of features comparison, I would say it is a total win for systemd

[VastOne]

LOL see post #46 in this thread 

 

Sorry, this is happening so fast I am having trouble keeping up... 

[statmonkey]

No worries. 

• With the detail provided by the Fedora page/Lennart/Arch Wiki my what is going on concerns are dead

• With the reading of Devil's posts, that Arch post, Arch going systemd and Fedora moving from upstart to systemd my question of where is the success is now answered

• With my testing (for example I created failure situations for several services using incorrect headers so I knew systemd would freak or actually taking whole things out in parts so it would fail and then I also crashed my boot drive and X on purpose to see if I could recover and then wiped out huge swath's of things on a boot drive and watch systemd cope with it) I am not very concerned about it's current level of robustness.

I am now working through my lists of crazy shit I have done to my system over the past three years and seeing what systemd does with it.  If that goes well I am more than on board and see no issues.  That will take me a day or two but I am actually becoming convinced with each passing test.

BTW my point about building our own was an attempt to present a Reductio ad absurdum.  I just don't think it is realistic to think Debian is going to come up with their own or that we are going to do so or that anyone else is when there is what seems to be a strong viable existing solution.  I think Jedi was also trying to do the same thing with his link to the Kay Sievers blast from Linus.  Apparently we both failed.  It is all well and good to say we should have another alternative.  It is completely irrelevant if no one is willing or capable or both of presenting that alternative.  It is just unrealistic to depend on others and then complain (not directed at anyone but myself) reality forces us to accept ... well reality.  Warts and all.  If the warts are too much you will make the effort to have them removed but if you keep them at some point you have to accept the fact that the warts are there but acceptable.

[VastOne]

From all I have gathered and absorbed, I am comfortable moving VSIDO to systemd...  I think it is important to be on that list of those who have converted ... not that VSIDO is anyone or anything, I do believe it will add value as a Debian derivative...

[statmonkey]

From all I have gathered and absorbed, I am comfortable moving VSIDO to systemd...  I think it is important to be on that list of those who have converted ... not that VSIDO is anyone or anything, I do believe it will add value as a Debian derivative...

At this point I would have to agree (to all except the part of VSIDO not being anyone) and applaud what I think is an informed and rational decision.

[jedi]

@statmonkey, Thanks for all the kind words.  My point exactly when linking to the Kay Sievers link.
@VastOne, to think that VSIDO is not "anyone or anything" is simply ludicrous.  This was in a sig on the above linked Arch Wiki; Satisfied users don't rant, so you'll never know how many of us there are.  I think that is very true of VSIDO.  Look at the accomplishments here in the past year.  I'm pretty sure we've gotten 'noticed'.

As one of the original and first users of VSIDO, I am very proud of this distro.  I think that the list of distro's that have adopted systemd has to turn Debian's direction in its favor.  If not I'll have totally misjudged Debian.

For Arch Linux to switch wholly to systemd speaks volumes IMO.  I think Arch is one of the most well known and respected distro's out there.  That said, it is also funny to me, as PackRat mentioned, that Ubuntu still has Fedora listed as having switched to Upstart with Fedora 9.  Fully 11 versions ago if my count is correct.  This is another blatant lie on the part of Ubuntu/Canonical/Upstart.  Fedora switched completely to systemd at Fedora 15.  These are HUGE distro's IMO in the Linux world.  To disregard their move to systemd is, to me, sort of like the ostrich sticking it's head in the sand to hide/avoid danger.  Sure it is peaceful and dark under there, but your ass is still hanging out, and a big target.  sysVinit will be going away.  To not accept that is IMO being the ostrich.

Your decision to go with systemd is totally a good idea!  This thread has ended up being totally informative and unlike some of the other sites I've visited, totally without all the vitriol and FUD.

Nice job, good decision...

[VastOne]

Thanks jedi... your a valued and trusted user whose support I greatly appreciate

@stamonkey, same goes for you and thank you both for the legwork you put into this discussion

[Digit]

*sniff sob bleet*

my remaining concern that's not just probable fud, is that this contributes to a sort of intelectual entropy in the broader exosphere... in that this helps solidify the compatibility separation from non linux unixes just a little more.  yep, it may well indeed be good for us...  we shall see...  but i think systemd addoption may be a sad note for broader foss.

still... we can always write our own re-implementation of systemd's ideas with all the posixy-unixy-portability if-fest stuff intact.  ^_^    and minus the "hostile upstream" feature.  hehehe

as i said in a chat somewhere, something like: "smarter minds than i, will figure it out".

3 times in the past i've used systemd.  two of which, were on exherbo... which was hard to tell what i thought of it then, exherbo itself being so alien to me on the whole.  the other time... i never got to boot with it.  my hardware failed before a reboot occurred.  ^_^ 

switching to systemd's a far more trivial thing than all the fuss might imply...  but how about switching back... is that equally as trivial?  ... y'know, just in case there's something unpleasant for anyone.

[VastOne]

^ Yes...

Code Select Expand

apt-get install sysvinit

Code Select Expand

apt-get purge systemd systemd-sysv

reboot