VSIDO Community

VSIDO Controls => VSIDO Discussions => Topic started by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 03:30:35 AM

Title: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 03:30:35 AM
PackRat originally started this discussion in the ScreenShot thread where he let us all know Siduction had moved to systemd

If debian goes with upstart,  I may have to will rethink everything.  I see no value in that move at all

I'll tear apart siductions implementation of systemd and see how they did it... perhaps engage with them on any pitfalls
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 05:30:04 AM
Thanks for that information PackRat I will be checking out Siduction when I get a moment.  It is interesting timing given what I read yesterday http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU1NjA (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU1NjA). If you are interested here is also a post from Lennart Poettering (a key player in systemd) from some time ago, October I think https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf (https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf) it's a good read as well.

The interesting part of this (at least my take) is that both Upstart and Systemd are going to impact the "freedom" of development because they are very (struggling for the right word) ... territorial - about how they handle core layers.  Meaning that choosing one or the other means a great deal to how, who and what api's are developed moving forward. 

VastOne, my initial reaction about Upstart is the same as yours but I've done a fair amount of research and I am not sure it will be totally devastating.  I like systemd, I use systemd but it is far from fool-proof.  The systemd guys claim that without total buy-in they can't take it much further and the reason for the bugginess is the fact that it hasn't been adopted.  It has a bit of a campaign slogan feel to me, I wonder if they will fulfill their promises if they get their wish.  Upstart and the further "canonicalization" of Debian also freaks me out, I won't lie.  But my gut/intuition tells me this is the direction Debian will go and they are just waiting for the shoe to drop.  In the end they need users/installs or they are just BSD 2.0. Canonical gives them that and they need Canonical more than Canonical needs them (as Mark ShuttleGates is happy to tell anyone who will listen).

All this blather (sorry for the ramble) is really just my way of saying, if you have the time this is an issue to read a little of the facts on and it impacts every Debian User.  There is a lot of sturm und drang out there and to be fair Upstart has some advantages.  It is the long term implications that I think few are considering and which I think Lennart points out nicely.  Oh, one last thing.  I think it was on Reddit (which I rarely read) but Lennart got into a flame war with a few Upstart fans.  If you can find it the unintentional comedy is pretty good.  :D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 05:40:51 AM
Thanks for all that statmonkey, I appreciate it

I have issues with both upstart and systemd actually... With upstart it is simply because debian would have to agree with Canonical's contributor agreement (http://www.canonical.com/contributors) and I cannot see that happening at all.  I am also frightened by debian's desire/need to get in bed with canonical and shuttleshit

Systemd on the other hand is a major concern because of Lennart... I do not like his views and demands of it being done his way or no way... I do not agree with his development style at all (works on mine, whats your problem?) and I do not care for his 'needs' to be in the middle of flame wars like you pointed out

Does not leave much for debian/VSIDO to look forward to... but only time will tell

I have moved this discussion to it's own thread.  I think it is a necessary discussion on VSIDO

Thanks


Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 05:48:32 AM
Moved to it's own thread for discussion
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 05:57:37 AM
Appreciate you heading this off in it's own direction, I really feel this is important.  Could not agree more with your comments regarding Lennart and his 'tude it seems frightening that we are down to a choice between Lucifer and Beelzebub at this point.  I believe I mentioned to him that his "truculence" was not earning him many converts and his response was pretty much "so?" 

If you do get in touch with the Siduction people you might want to touch base with Devil (keeping on a theme I guess :) over there.  I have corresponded with him frequently over the years (you probably already know him he has been very active in the Sid world) since my old Aptosid days and he has his head on straight.  I also am not sure if you read the Survey thread http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3499 (http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3499) over there but some good points in it.  Early on a user wrote:
Quote
Sure. Others have stated this much better than I can, but the ideas came to me as soon as I started seeing what systemd does in Arch Linux, about a year ago. It not only takes the responsibilities of an init system, but also the functions of udev, dbus, system logging, and possibly others.

In my opinion, this major bundling of functionality reduces my software freedom of choice. It does not fit with the Linux principle of "do one thing and do it right".

Maybe my thinking is unsound, but that is the way I feel about it.

Thanks,
Tim
I think he stated humbly and very well part of what I was trying to say earlier.  I would be interested in any more thoughts you have and if you are up for it a chat with IG might be in order.  He has some pretty strong and of course, good thoughts on the matter.  In fact I believe he stated he was going to stay sysv at all costs.

Oh and I just read the Canonical agreement you linked to. OMG.  I see lightdm on that list -- I think I will be swapping out my dm. :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 06:06:12 AM
I have read that thread, all of it as a matter of fact.  I do not know devil, but regard him highly and his obvious knowledge

Siduction is a 'different' place... Do not get me wrong, I lub it!  They are in their own world there and even though we are in the same SID playground, I doubt very much if anyone there has even heard of VSIDO or regards it as any type of 'peer' ... Doing a search on that site for VSIDO brought up one reference... Not that his means anything, but I think it is an important note

I agree, perhaps it is time to discuss this or bring IgnorantGuru in on it... I always look forward to his opinions... 
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 06:12:32 AM
Damn it man!  When you do switch out your dm, let me know what you come up with ... we will have to adjust VSIDO's as well

 ???
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 06:20:01 AM
True about their own world and frankly barely interested in that world other than I know quite a few people over there.  As a distro I find their direction rather ............. confusing.  I mean Gnome 3?????  But, it's a much friendlier place than Aptosid ever was and they do build a nice disto package, just nothing I would ever be interested in.  I do think Devil is one of those Linuxers who is interested in Linux as a whole and problems as a distro builder, at least that has always been my experience.  There are a couple of people over at Arch that have been pretty helpful to me on systemd issues as well.

You read that whole thread?  That is why you are the man and I am just a flunky.  I cherry picked :) but again found some things interesting.  One of them is that there is some vehemence in the community against systemd from the start.  I am not sure how much of that is fact based and how much is rumor based but there is a strong bias present.

I am quite honestly not nearly as knowledgeable on Upstart and need to get more so.  I would say that personally I have a strong bias against it and that is more rumor than fact based. Actually it is more conceptual than issue based.  Systemd has an advantage for me because I use it.  Having read that agreement you linked to I have to admit it is going to be hard for me to buy into Upstart.  If there is any leg work I can do for you on this let me know.

You know what sucks?  I really like lightdm too.  I just discovered the scripting part of it through using arandr, it's really well done.  Oh well, I can't sleep with the enemy.  I am already doing that research and will let you know but it sounds like something that Dizzie, lfwitz, Jedi or PackRat have probably already figured out.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 02, 2014, 06:33:20 AM
housekeeping request: could we get a link to the thread this seems to have been spliced from, since it references other content now lo longer present.  thnx oh, i see, screenshot thread

Quote
The interesting part of this (at least my take) is that both Upstart and Systemd are going to impact the "freedom" of development because they are very (struggling for the right word) ... territorial - about how they handle core layers.  Meaning that choosing one or the other means a great deal to how, who and what api's are developed moving forward. 

well said.  i think that highlights the crux of the matter quite well indeed.

so...

if life has thrown us some disruption lemons, lets make some shake-up lemonade.  ^_^  why not then give a broader look around, and see what others could also be up for consideration...  vsido already is bold and courageous enough to pick pieces of software that seem/feel, to many of us, to be the "best" choices, even if it does somewhat cut against the debian mother superior grain (remastersys > debian live unhelper).

now i'll preface the rest of what i have to say on this with a disclaimer that i've not looked with any great depth into any of these, especially with regards to the issues involved with implementation with debian, and have more of a "admire from afar" take on these...  but having said that, if shit's potentially getting shaken up, lets consider from a wider pool of options, since there are pros&cons to each.  additional to this disclaimer... yes, i know the thread title says systemd and upstart discussion... i'm just that kind of maverick to ignore that and paint further outside the lines, lol, sry.

openrc.
i'm not sure, maybe this seems like a hefty overkill for vsido... but it is mmmmmmmnice.   ... sorry, my gentoo-fanboi-ism shining through.

runit.
have a read through of dragora's info about it... sounds rather clean and well thought out, with very little obfuscation, easy access for users to suss.

epoch.
k, maybe i'm reaching too far into the wilds... but, if the likes of systemd and even upstart are on the cards, sure, why not consider epoch too!  :)  its aimed to be small, simple and elegant..  and it packs a reasonable feature punch with that simplicity.



ok, ok, i'll stop before i go wild n suggest smf or something as daft.   just wanted to stretch the edges of considerations since signs of potential disruption seem like an opportune time for it.

i suppose my recent revisiting of exherbo has contributed to my thinking here.... there, as in gentoo, one is not limited to one init system, and has a choice.  ... though i do understand how this is less viable to implement in a distro like vsido, and thus makes discussions such as this more important to get right.   hope i've helped, and not hindered.


PS.   having said all that... if it aint broke... 

;)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 06:43:41 AM
Fantastic input Digit (as always)

Blame VastOne he named the thread  ::)

Not really familiar with any of those so I have some work to do. 
Quote
if life has thrown us some disruption lemons, lets make some shake-up lemonade.
Thinking out of the box is always a contribution.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 06:45:12 AM
I lub savant (Digit) for sharing this incredible knowledge and for the additional insights to what is available

(I'll let the Gentoo fanboi slide this time) ...  ::)

Great post, and a great dicussion by all!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 06:48:19 AM
Just saw this...


PS.   having said all that... if it aint broke... 

;)

And love it even more!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 06:49:51 AM
Fantastic input Digit (as always)

Blame VastOne he named the thread  ::)

Not really familiar with any of those so I have some work to do. 
Quote
if life has thrown us some disruption lemons, lets make some shake-up lemonade.
Thinking out of the box is always a contribution.

I am v-ger, I am always right and always wrong and always to blame!  And your right, thinking out of the box is probably the most important contribution
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 06:52:39 AM
One more thing.  Regarding the "if it ain't broke" comment.  I do agree and with Debian always moving at the speed of snails it is hard to know when/if a decision will be made but based on posts I have been reading this is seeming to come to a head finally.  In one of the Phoronix posts I linked to I think he mentioned that votes were being cast (posted on Nov. 30) so if we stay in the middle of the road we might get run over.  Really excited by Digit's suggestions and love that lemonade metaphor.  As he suggested there might be an opportunity here after all.

v-ger?  LOL I can't keep up.  I am Monkey-ger and I know nothing!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 02, 2014, 07:35:48 AM
i suppose i'll be d'ger then... i'll make that du-ger, just to keep it fitting... (danish for "you increase", (or so says online translation tools) ~ just as i did in this thread).

getting run over by staying in the middle of the road... or perhaps, if we dont decide, a decision will be made for us... yeah.  that lights a fire under our ass then.  jings

ps,
VastOne went to bed with the mantra "one simply cannot kick syvinit"...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 02, 2014, 09:54:13 AM
OK, my .00002 cents worth. (sorry for the lengthyness of this post, it touched a nerve maybe or something close)
First, what is the problem with sysvinit?  OK, so systemd will do a complete userspace boot-up in 900ms.  So what?  Having personally tried systemd with VSIDO, I saw no 'great' benefits. OTOH, I have never tried Upstart.  (does using Upstart mean using Mir/Unity?)
Second, when you mention Upstart, all that I can think of is "we're Shuttleworth'd"...
And third, why do we have to have one, or the other?  There are multiple choices now.  (As Digit so aptly mentions above) 

Back to boot speeds, I read one posters comment, (on one of the other forums) and I'm paraphrasing here, if my system takes 3 to 5 minutes to boot, but once booted it remains solid and has no issues, then I don't care.  Personally I think that the boot speeds that most people are talking about these days have more to do, generically, with UEFI than systemd. (yes, I know systemd drastically can reduce boot times, and have seen that with my own eyes) But, UEFI passes the boot off from the BIOS (read; slow) and directly to hardware, which, if your using an SSD, can seem instantaneous.  So, in a server environment, IMO, boot speeds tend to be irrelevant.  On a desktop (laptop) this becomes even more irrelevant. (unless of course, your James Bond, the earth is getting ready to explode, and you have to save the Universe, then I'll agree, you need a fast booting piece of metal)

I also feel that for the most part, if your using Linux, and your making decisions like this (hmmmm systemd or Upstart) then most likely, you can pick and choose your init system for yourself.

The nice thing about systemd, to quote from the Debian wiki: "Fedora, OpenSuSE, Arch and Mageia have already made the choice to use systemd, and it is getting excellent upstream support for a growing number of packages".  Another nice 'feature', "The transition plan is easy, since existing init scripts are treated as first-class services: scripts can depend (using LSB headers) on units, units can depend on scripts. More than 99% of init scripts can be used without a modification". (another quote from the Debian wiki) Wow, without modification?  Nuff said 'bout dat.

Gentoo, I think, is into OpenRC, but also supports systemd.  I always kind of looked at Gentoo as the true geeks Linux!  No offense intended there...

While I ask, who would use it, doesn't Gnome3 depend on systemd?  In realistic terms I would bet that if your not using a 'buntu' flavored derivative, (unity) stats would say that A LOT of 'new' users are using Gnome3. Does this affect their decision to part ways with Linux?  Same question for KDE4...

At least 2 of the Tech-Committee members at Debian work or worked for Ubuntu/Canonical/Shuttleworth.  Does this mean an "automatic" vote for Upstart?  At least one of them has publicly stated his support for Upstart. (Ian Jackson)  This scares me.  I think there are actually too many nuances to this discussion that we'll have no say in.  If it comes right down to it, my stubborn and anti-establishment mind set automatically makes Upstart a no go for me.  While I appreciate what Ubuntu has done for Linux as a whole, (bringing in LOTS of new users, that once they find out how intuitive Linux can be, run for the Linux distro hills so-to-speak)  The commercial an PR aspect of canonical/Ubuntu really discourage me.  I feel that Shuttleworth wants Linux as his own personal kingdom similar in aspects to little Billy Gates and his desire for MS to eventually rule the world, then on tot the Universe!

I have no personal experience with OpenRC, epoch, or runit.  SysVinit, and systemd on the other hand I have plenty of personal exp with.  I have no complaints about either.  IMO systemd has a lot of dev's working hard to keep the upstream satisfied in that it already supports so much.  I think Upstart has a lot of catching up to do in this regard.

Also back to philosophy; FOSS, OpenSource are the bare bones basics of Linux to me.  I have yet to actually HAVE to pay for anything related to Linux.  How many of you have?  systemd doesn't threaten me or my stand on the FOSS project goals.

To specifics.  I, like VastOne, am concerned about Lennart's attitude.  The guy is brilliant, a genius if you must.  However his curt, and sometimes antagonistic views, are a real turn off.  Brilliance sometimes has it's idiosyncrasies/eccentricities, and I take most of his angst as par for the course with how brilliance works.  I happen to really like pulseaudio.  Lennart was the original dev there if I'm not mistaken.  The project almost died.  Since his leaving, pulseaudio has continued to improve, and I think if the same happened with systemd, the same would happen that happened with pulseaudio.  There are plenty of competent dev's working on it at this point that I'd say it is completely reliable in being maintained.  Just as pulseaudio continues to improve without him. (Lennart)  This is not meant to be offensive to Lennart, just stating what I've read and heard talking to other dev's.  To clarify, I've never spoke with Lennart and have no personal feelings there at all and am not trying to start a flame contest!

Debian's results in their systemd survey were pretty succinct;  If not overwhelming support for systemd, it was substantial.  You can't make everyone happy all the time, and when you try, YOU FAIL! Period.  There are many examples of this in the 'nix' world.  Here today, gone tomorrow.

All of this said, I don't know a lot about any of it!  Just reading I've done over the past month or so a little at a time.

OTOH, tomorrow, OpenRC may make a breakthrough and all of this dribble will be for naught.  All of a sudden we'll all want OpenRC.  After all, what's good for Gentoo must be good for everyone else, right?

statmonkey, in the end, is right of course.  This will impact every Debian user starting now for some, but certainly all others in the future.  Another important note in statmonkey's post,
Quote from: statmonkey
I believe I mentioned to him that his "truculence" was not earning him many converts and his response was pretty much "so?"
This seems to be a trend especially the last year with some of the better Linux dev's.  Alienation is the last thing needed here.

In the end, I am not touting one over the other.  However, it seems that one has been totally thought through and the other has not.

Being listed on the Canonical agreement has me worried about LightDM in a big way. I was not aware of that, and I also am quite fond of LightDM and, I suppose I'll have to start looking at a different option. Unfortunate, as I truly liked LightDM and the ease with which you could script your way to personalized setups. Oh well...

Quote from: Digit
PS.   having said all that... if it aint broke...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 02, 2014, 10:28:48 AM
i'll just get this tidbit outta the way first...
Quote
Gentoo, I think, is into OpenRC, but also supports systemd.  I always kind of looked at Gentoo as the true geeks Linux!  No offense intended there...
gentoo (and presumably funtoo) can do init/bsd style stuff too, as well as epoch (i think).  likely other ways too.  exherbo lets you go openrc or systemd out of the box, both mentioned in the installation, iirc.  there's a page on the wiki or something depicting it...  ah, yup: http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems (http://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Comparison_of_init_systems)   ... not that this should hold much bearing on sway on our deliberations for vsido.  ;)

then, y'see..
Quote
And third, why do we have to have one, or the other?  There are multiple choices now.
hrmmm... let the user choose, in the installer... hrmmm....  ...  i can only imagine that will involve a tremendous amount of legwork for our poor dev, to accommodate them all.  would be sweet as tits, but then the odd-balls, systemd and upstart, they'd throw spanners into the works complexifying and increasing bugs and limitations and lengthy workarounds needed... or so i presume from what i've gathered...  never really looked into the code, nor likely would make much sense of it ~ did actually skim through systemd's code when new ~ and i suppose that's why i like the idea of a fathomnable init system, shell scripts as much as is possible/sensible.     ...but i suppose that's just me and some crazy idea i have of wanting to know what's going on in my system. ;)

"shuttleworth'd"

yeah, we dont rly wanna be that, do we?  associated with a guy who's said he has taken a leaf from the book of rockerfella, gates and soros...  o_O

Quote
"The transition plan is easy, since existing init scripts are treated as first-class services: scripts can depend (using LSB headers) on units, units can depend on scripts. More than 99% of init scripts can be used without a modification"
ghadamn, i didnt realise there be such a seamless transition!  :O  ... so we could be in entirely familiar territory?  ... what's the catch?  does this inhibit the speed boons (which i dont really care all that much about anyways), or add potential nasty bugs for the 1%, or...wha?  there's gotta be a catch.  i'm slowly, bit by bit, losing reasons not to jump on the systemd bandwaggon. ^_^

Quote
doesn't Gnome3 depend on systemd?
o_O  good grief!  that's absurd!  ... on gnome3's part.  ... oh well, so long as systemd doesnt depend on gnome 3, lol.
either way though, it seems like foot shooting.

ace post there jedi.

if we were given the vote, and it was a fixed choice of either systemd, or upstart, i think it's no competition at all.  though i still would have a little tear in my eye as i voted for systemd.  upstart has seemed from the start like a kind of afterthought response to system d, like "oh, that can be done, a new init system from the ground up, cool, we'll want that too for shuttleworth kingdom".
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 02, 2014, 10:36:55 AM
oh hey, look...

http://lwn.net/Articles/513224/ (http://lwn.net/Articles/513224/) & http://lwn.net/Articles/512719/ (http://lwn.net/Articles/512719/)
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple (https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/multiple) (instantly reminds me of how openrc isnt itself a whole solution, and relies on an init system, and it just takes care of managing things nicely)
https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRC (https://wiki.debian.org/OpenRC) ( & http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/04/msg00547.html (http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/04/msg00547.html) )
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc (https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc) (has nice subsections: https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc#A_bit_of_OpenRC_description (https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/openrc#A_bit_of_OpenRC_description) (1,2&3))


.... so i suppose i wasnt so mad after all for suggesting it be considered. ;)

ps. mmm, i do lub me the neddyseagoon and bonsaikitten. :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 02, 2014, 01:23:25 PM
@jedi - the Debian wiki lists Fedora as switching to systemd? Interesting since the Ubuntu Upstart page has them listed as using upstart since Fedora 9 (that's what, 11 releases ago?). It may be worth some research to see if Fedora tried Upstart then went systemd - based on some of the comments about servers in the links by statmonkey, I can see that decision coming down from Red Hat.

@jedi and statmonkey - not to highjack the thread, but if you're concerned about the dm you're using there is the Console Display Manager (CDM) written by an Arch user -

 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=84408 (https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=84408)

I know several users (gutterslob and myself come to mind) that have used this in the past successfully on Debian systems. Needs some initial setup, but nothing too extreme. Currently, I'm using lightdm and slim (with Slackware).
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 04:42:37 PM
Ha - Of course PackRat had a solution.  Thanks will look into CDM thank you.

I need to find the thread but at some point Lennart was admitting that if Debian accepted systemd it was inevitable (due to structure) that dev's would make systemd a dependency.  In fact, he suggested that whether it was systemd or upstart it would be likely in the future that due to the bundling of udev, etc. this would be a goal.  The point I am getting at here is that a decision not to use either of these is more than likely going to impact the other packages in the distribution.  I am not sure I am putting that as well as it should be but it's very critical to the whole issue. This I believe is IG's objection to the whole discussion.  Should Debian go in the upstart direction some of our favorites could no longer be available and the freedom of movement limited down the road by either system.

Some great stuff here from Jedi etc.  Digit thanks for the links.  But I have to call bullshit on that 99% don't have to be touched.  Systemd changes the method of initialization and reporting.  It blackboxes certain operations and it is not compatible with many of the old sysv stuff.  I don't know where they get that but I have 4 bugs right now that apt can't fix and that have been open since at least Jan of last year.  The threads that I have read and responded to frequently include information about patches that have been written but aren't yet available due to ancillary issues caused by their implementation and subsequent dependency issues.

Short night and lots of work today so this post might sound a bit alarmist (my apologies) but it's great that so many of you have been thinking on this. This is such a fantastic community, I really had begun to wonder if I was alone in the wilderness regarding my concern about the path Debian seems to be on.  I don't think the multiple choice method is anything that v-ger :) could do without killing him and I am not sure that the integration level of systemd will allow that long term.  upstart is just a no go for me, Jedi's post made that confirmed in my mind.

Jedi - yes Ian and one other have essentially committed publicly to upstart  :'(
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 07:27:46 PM
OK, been filling my head with a lot of shit..  a lot of angst out there over these things

@jedi, great post!

@Digit .. thanks for all the info, it is relevant and I lub it but I must confess, my head now hurts

Regarding Canonicals agreement and lightdm...
Quote
With the contributor agreement chosen by Canonical, the Harmony CLA, the contributor gives Canonical a licence to use their contributions. The contributor continues to own the copyright in the contribution, with full rights to re-use, re-distribute, and continue modifying the contributed code, allowing them to also share that contribution with other projects.

Is it really an issue? ... From that I looked into CDM and it looks like it never made it past 'hey how do I package this for debian' ... all the threads look at least 3 years old and now seems irrelevant IMO

I have looked into OpenRC and it is not an easy strip and rip function to change on a debian install... I will continue to play with it

Overall, I am wondering if the best option may be to sit in the middle of this road until there is more dust that is settled and see where it goes. Right now I do not see a clear path at all from debian and until that is done it makes this an exercise in futility IMO for VSIDO... NOT for this discussion or alternatives, it just seems as if my hands are tied right now to move in any direction... I am comfortable waiting for it to happen

I would like to use systemd as a default for VSIDO but feel uncomfortable with that right now due to all that has been discussed... so I will simply ask, what would you do?
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 07:38:56 PM
I have a pet phrase that can be applied to many situations including this one. "To see the tree falling is to move".  In other words if a tree is falling on your head you don't think about it, you just get out of the way.  This works in reverse as well, if there is no tree falling you really don't have to get out of the way. 

There have been a great many links posted here, some really good input and of course a really good discussion. But, based on where you are at and I think you stated that clearly.  I would do nothing but continue to look around and keep an open mind.  Keep posting things in this thread as more becomes clear, there is a lot of cruft out there right now and when it is clear, it just will be clear.

On a separate subject, yes the Canonical Agreement is really a problem but that should be in another thread.

Regarding CDM, yes it's dead but the part that hung them up is trivial to me.  I will delve into this and see what I can do with my limited abilities.  Again another thread.

My .0000000002 cents worth (have to outdo Jedi) is to do nothing I guess.  But being aware that this is a moving target and keeping a 10,000 foot view of it is a good idea.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 02, 2014, 09:09:57 PM
@vastone -

I just pointed out CDM as an alternative for statmonkey and jedi if they wanted to move from lightdm; didn't mean to imply it should be adopted by VSIDO.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 09:12:46 PM
^ I know... I was actually looking forward to something different and wanted needed something new to look at so CDM was exciting!  I was giving full disclosure as to why my head hurt

No worries at all my friend...  8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 02, 2014, 09:17:36 PM
@Digit, nice links, did you see this one?
https://wiki.debian.org/Debate/initsystem/systemd
or this one?
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00149.html

Sorry if I'm duping things here.  Both those links have some really good info concerning the pro's/con's.

@statmonkey, I agree with the tree analogy!  Also the 99% came from that first link I posted above...
@VastOne, I think your idea to stand in the middle of the road on this for a while is a sound decision.
Reading more about the CLA and LightDM, I agree that this is probably a non-issue.

After the mind spinning/whirling reading adventure of the past few days, my decision would be unhesitatingly for systemd.  The more I read about Upstart, the scarier that proposition gets to me.  They are determined to have total control of the code, from all I've read, which is totally against any FOSS philosophy I've ever studied, they are a small group and have a limited number of participants (evidently a strict guideline of Ubuntu/Canonical/Shuttleworth) where systemd is the opposite, in that they have a lot of dev's, and they are not trying to totally control the code.  I also like that the systemd code has over 14,000 lines of comments in it, or around 10% of the lines of code...
This is definitely NOT the case with Upstart.

systemd is very well documented, with man pages on practically everything.  Upstart, not so much...

I believe there are still a lot of dominoes to fall so-to-speak, and that there is plenty of time to make a decision regarding VSIDO in the future.

What I have found scariest in this little sojourn is the fact that "Debian" has allowed Canonical/Ubuntu employees to be part of their core group of developers.  To me this sounds/feels ominous and smells like there's some devious plan in place by Shuttleworth to abscond with Debian.  Shouldn't that be the opposite?  Canonical/Ubuntu allowing some "Debian" developers to be a part?  I firmly believe that Debian should be standing on it's own, as it always has, and if a distro wants to use it as it's base, so be it.  I don't feel that Canonical is, how do you say it, playing fair here?  (But hey I'm probably just being my usual paranoid self!!)  :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 02, 2014, 10:31:29 PM
Interesting reading thank you Jedi.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 10:57:24 PM
I have figured out how to remove and replace sysvinit with systemd ... so far the only thing I am seeing at all is incredible bootup and shutdown speeds and no other issues

Should I create a x64 ISO for testing... what say you?
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 02, 2014, 11:16:35 PM
One other thought... Sitting in the middle of the road does have distinctive advantages.  Should debian decide to go to upstart, we can say no thank you and go with systemd if needed

Another thought I have is systemd is being 'pushed' as a redhat product... do you in general trust redhat and fedora more or less than Canonical?
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on January 02, 2014, 11:27:36 PM
Another thought I have is systemd is being 'pushed' as a redhat product... do you in general trust redhat and fedora more or less than Canonical?

Incredible discussion gentlemen, to which I have lurked as my expertise pales to some extent to yours, but in answer to the question I guess Redhat/Fedora would be my pick.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 03, 2014, 12:23:04 AM
If you have figured out how to replace sysvinit with systemd, then create an alpha release iso for testing - part of the learning process should you decide to stay on the systemd path.

I would definitely trust RedHat more than Canonical.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 12:24:24 AM
Thanks RatMan....

Alpha ISO is uploading now and as soon as it is done I will give the link
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 01:17:36 AM
Here is the Alpha ISO (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4gKMu7RCW3eRlljUTEwRm9GWGs/edit?usp=sharing)

v-ger demands testing and reporting

 ;D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 03, 2014, 01:26:05 AM
I will be installing in a few minutes.  I'd trust RedHat waaaaaaaay more than Canonical...

Canonical has lobotomized Linux...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 01:49:11 AM
There is an issue that will cause a delay on the boot...

For whatever reason, fstab is setup with a swap partition even though there is not one on the install

To correct the delay, simply edit /etc/fstab and comment out

Code: [Select]
/dev/ none swap sw 0 0
and the boot time will be nearly instantaneous

I will find the way to resolve this
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 03, 2014, 02:12:55 AM
Downloading now and will test and let you know.  Trust
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 02:14:48 AM
bwhahahahahaha

That sir is epic!   8)

Thank you!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 03, 2014, 03:08:11 AM
Installed to metal (Asus G55VW Laptop).  Runs great of course.  Another fine piece of work VastOne.  There is a very, very, very, noticeable difference in boot speeds.  Also, shutdown takes like 1 1/2 seconds or so...
No difference with nvidia yet.  Still using more memory with the nvidia driver installed.
I'd say systemd on VSIDO is a 100% success!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 03, 2014, 04:18:30 AM
woosh.  lively thread this.  i'll try to throw out a concise punchy responce, rich in brevity, albeit short on finer grained nuance.

from statmonkey's posts, i am again finding myself feeling firmly in the "fuck systemd" camp.  tis the lesser of two evils, but that's not how i vote. ;)

good to see it being put to the test... however... i dont feel inclined to test it.  i install A LOT of software on my main production machines... and that of course increases chances of encountering the afore mentioned characteristic woes.  woes that ootb vsido is unlikely to encounter, having so few packages installed.  so a test for me, would be in production, and i'd just feel silly installing several gig (even tens of gb) of software on a purely test install, just to see how many of these bugs i encounter, having already had a loose grasp of the nature of the situation causing them.

i'd rather have the relatively harmless shortcomings of sysvinit, than the borkings and constrictions and obfuscations and the (probable?/inevitable?) development path constrainings of systemd. 

... but as statmonkey said... if a tree were to fall...
in such a case, it'd be good to have already had eyes open long enough to have informed the reflexes where to move to.  :)

trust...
even though i have forsaken rpm based long ago, i do feel more trust for redhat than canonical.  not sure who i trust more out of canonical and novel.  canonical smack too much of the car salesman desperate to convince you of its self-presentation... having been a psy-warrior on the side of the "advertising and marketing" and gained the insider insights, that now instantly earns distrust from me.

(this could make an excellent thread in itself, but i'll throw it in here for now too anyways)
i trust, in this order:
1: source based distros that have a council/committee who do all their deliberations transparently, and let the user decide
2: source/binary distros that may have a sole lead dev, but have all their software be as vanilla as possible / as upstream intended/released
3: community developed binary based distros
4: individual developed spin-off distros
5: government backed / public-body institution oriented distros
6: other
7: big gap...
distrust...
8: corporate backed distros
9: proprietary operating systems
10: spy agencies & other secretive agencies of government
11: corporate espionage groups & associated psy-op "news" and other corporatocracy controlled media
12: secret societies
13: old white alpha-males in the 13 ruling families

;)

Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 03, 2014, 05:10:40 AM
Digit - you actually are exactly the one who should be testing this.  I say that not as an illuminati member nor as a patriarch of the Bush Family, not even as a former NBC correspondent and employee of the NSA but as an aging white alpha male.  ::)  Seriously, I understand it being a pain in the ass but someone who uses a lot of software is probably going to see different things than those of us who run somewhat minimal setups.  I enjoyed your list and your reasoning.  I guess I am the punchline of a Woody Allen joke. 
Quote
"I would not want to be a member of any club that would have me as a member."

Did just go through a quick install, it was quick and performed well.  My boot times and shutdown times (yes I did the fstab change) are not stupendous but it's an old Acer Aspire One and don't expect much.  Nothing exciting happened it just performed like a trusty Vsido install.  I do wonder one thing. Why is Xterm the go to terminal?  I mean roxterm and terminator have more features I don't mean to complain but I just don't get what xfce terminal brings to the table.  Sorry, wrong thread.

I will beat the hell out of this for the next few days.  I don't like being in a box and would like to avoid either of these solutions but further reading is convincing me that something is going to happen on this.  I really think that if they go upstart it will be the end of Debian as we know it.  But, I also think that from what I have read it is pretty clear that if they go systemd working around it will be highly difficult given the way it handles events and groups.  Jedi posted an excellent thread/Position paper that explains this the best I have seen.

Agree great thread, the type of discussion and input that is available no where else that I have come to appreciate here.  I even will go far as to say that while lacking the depth and breadth of subjects that CB has the dialog is more thought provoking.  Kudo's to all.

Oh and zbreaker er .. z-ger?.  We know very little, post your thoughts my guess is you probably have as much or more knowledge than myself for sure.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 03, 2014, 09:42:03 AM
If I have to pick only one guy from the linux world as the most sensible, I will pick Patrick Volkerding. And this is what he has to say about systemd,
Quote
Concerning systemd, I do like the idea of a faster boot time (obviously), but I also like controlling the startup of the system with shell scripts that are readable, and I'm guessing that's what most Slackware users prefer too. I don't spend all day rebooting my machine, and having looked at systemd config files it seems to me a very foreign way of controlling a system to me, and attempting to control services, sockets, devices, mounts, etc., all within one daemon flies in the face of the UNIX concept of doing one thing and doing it well. To the typical end user, if this results in a faster boot then mission accomplished. With udev being phased out in favor of systemd performing those tasks we'll have to make the decision at some point between whether we want to try to maintain udev ourselves, have systemd replace just udev's functions, or if we want the whole kit and caboodle.
If you have any doubts regarding Patrik's ability this is what he said regarding gnome way back in 2005 when he dropped gnome from slackware,
Quote
There is also Dropline, of course, which is quite popular. However, due to their policy of adding PAM and replacing large system packages (like the entire X11 system) with their own versions, I can't give quite the same sort of nod to Dropline.
Please do not incorrectly interpret any of this as a slight against GNOME itself, which (although it does usually need to be fixed and polished beyond the way it ships from upstream more so than, say, KDE or XFce) is a decent desktop choice. So are a lot of others, but Slackware does not need to ship every choice. GNOME is and always has been a moving target (even the "stable" releases usually aren't quite ready yet) that really does demand a team to keep up on all the changes (many of which are not always well documented).
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 03, 2014, 11:46:22 AM
Here is the Alpha ISO (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4gKMu7RCW3eRlljUTEwRm9GWGs/edit?usp=sharing)

v-ger demands testing and reporting

 ;D

Of course you would put this up 15 minutes AFTER I installed siduction.

Installed with swap on HP2000 laptop; happily dual-booting with Windows 7. Well done vastone.

@hackerdefo - thanks for the quote from Patrick V. - I may stand corrected, I thought Slackware had a press release where they would move to systemd with the next full version.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 02:28:18 PM
Thanks for that hakerdefo. Unlike gnome back then that had choices like xfce and kde and several other DE/WM's, systemd has basically upstart as an alternative and I do not think there is a question that sysvinit is lacking and needs to be replaced.  I am not sure if systemd or upstart would be the moving target in that analogy

@PackRat... sorry man!  Glad you found a way to test... thanks for the feedback
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 03, 2014, 03:30:45 PM
@vastone - I just replaced siduction; it has some quirks on my computers, so more than happy to go VSIDO to test Sid+systemd

have i3 and xfce going now.

I noticed that a lot of i3 and xfce configs etc... were on the iso. I thought you were going fluxbox only going forward. If so, you should probably clean some of that out. Keep the i3 configs in the wm thread in case someone wants them.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 03:33:23 PM
Interesting.. what were the issues with Siduction?

Those have been left there by design... they were the defaults for VSIDO when xfce, i3 and openbox were a part of VSIDO and would give the user a look at VSIDO with them on an install.  I wanted to keep them there in the interim but I think they can be removed now

Thanks for the feedback
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 03, 2014, 04:18:27 PM
On this laptop, Siduction recognizes the keyboard as US English, but assigned the win-key, CTRL-R, and ALT-R something different that other distros - something Euro/German by default I suppose. It's a quick fix with some changes in .Xmodmap, but it threw me for a loop the first time I installed it and a bunch of my key bindings didn't work.

I'll get the occasional pop-up window in German; Slackel does the same thing - only in Greek.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 03, 2014, 04:59:29 PM
Thanks for that hakerdefo. Unlike gnome back then that had choices like xfce and kde and several other DE/WM's, systemd has basically upstart as an alternative and I do not think there is a question that sysvinit is lacking and needs to be replaced.  I am not sure if systemd or upstart would be the moving target in that analogy.
I wanted to convey two things by quoting Patrik. First, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why fix-replace sysvinit?
Second, Patrik saw where gnome was headed before anyone else and gnome 3 proved he was right. So if he is skeptical regarding systemd then it is not a good sign.
And last but not the least good old Lennart Poettering is the brain(?!?) behind systemd.
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 03, 2014, 05:37:59 PM
hackerdefo, thanks for posting Patrick's comment.  I have read that article and the primary thread (with Lennart - I think) posing as a poster on LQ.  I think I posted this elsewhere but really do believe that anyone who is concerned with this subject should read http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html (http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html) which is Lennart in his own words.  I won't say whether I think it will turn you on or off of systemd, just it will give you a good info base if you haven't read it.

Patrick also wrote this in regards to why replace sysv:
Quote
Well, the problem with using shell scripts in the boot process is that it goes through a lot of PIDs, and it would be "less ugly" to arrive at a usable machine state with a PID in the hundreds, or lower. If everything has to break in order to achieve that, it seems like a good trade. Eventually all the broken stuff will be fixed, right?

back in 2011.  Admittedly, he is the lone dev of a (not being critical) luddite oriented distro.  He has chosen not to add quite a few things and unfortunately I think Slack has suffered for that and fallen off the radar a bit.  He got some right, to give him his due (like HAL for example) but he has missed more.  Sorry but I am not going back to Slackware.  That thread http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-and-systemd-885228/ (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/slackware-and-systemd-885228/) devolved into a nightmare, some decent points were raised but it really does seem that there are a lot of arguments against Lennart and not systemd even Patrick posted:
Quote
Let's just switch to any crazy idea Lennart can come up with.
that quite frankly concerns me. Objectively, while I think Patrick is a Linux King the body of evidence would suggest that he trends toward the "conservative/no change/fine the way it is" line of thinking.  Again, not criticism just and observation.

I am undecided regarding systemd.  I want to be clear on that.  I see some things I like and really have some questions as to the impact of some of the decisions made.  I think it needs more time before I am ready to jump on the bandwagon (losing cron?; udev issues; not being able to grep logs;?) and I don't want to be posting novel sized comments on here all the time.  But I do think there is enough merit, enough positives regarding systemd and the problems it is trying to solve that it deserves fair consideration.  Certainly more than "the only thing it adds is fast boot times" which I am sick of hearing.  Or that this is an evil cabal designed by Lennart to take over the Linux world.  What I would like to have is more honest user experience.  I can't do this or that or it really helps this or I like that.

In the LQ thread linked above a member (who may or may not be Lennart :) ) posted the following in regards to Slackware:
Quote
It's customizable not because any effort was put into that. But because (contrarily to Debian and Fedora) it's one of the rare distros that does have a sane policy of not including everything and the kitchen sink. It makes choices instead of allowing every esoteric possibility. That's what makes it easily customizable. And it has to be this way. If not, one person wouldn't be enough to keep it updated. But the best would be a distro that would make choices, that doesn't include everything and the kitchen sink, but which would also strive to be consistent so as to put some order into the chaos of the bazaar. There's no reason why one can't have the best of both worlds.

I am guessing I don't need to explain why I like the quote and how it relates to this discussion.  My apologies as always for the long post and just hoping to add some value to the discussion.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 03, 2014, 05:48:54 PM
I wanted to convey two things by quoting Patrik. First, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why fix-replace sysvinit?
Second, Patrik saw where gnome was headed before anyone else and gnome 3 proved he was right. So if he is skeptical regarding systemd then it is not a good sign.
And last but not the least good old Lennart Poettering is the brain(?!?) behind systemd.
Cheers.
Oops! He certainly did get Gnome3 right and he may well be right about systemd.
You can read my earlier thoughts on Lennart but ...... while it's hard to get warm and fuzzy with the guy he ain't an idiot.  He does make it hard to leave the personal side out doesn't he?  ;)

I think what you added was good input.  Again thanks for posting it, we post to generate thought and comment and certainly your post added value.  I am in hopes that all this moves our community to be better informed and prepared regardless of what happens with Debian.  Again, I am undecided on systemd and right now firmly in the if it ain't broke camp.  Currently reading all I can on runit and waiting patiently for the development and release of hakerdefo-ger.sysinit version 1.0 that fixes all of this  :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 03, 2014, 06:06:38 PM
The elephant in the room is that sysvinit may not be broke, but is not doing what could/should/needs to be done

From the Debian Wiki
Quote
We've gotten a lot of mileage out of sysvinit in Debian, but its limits have been showing for a while - indeed, it was these limits that led to upstart being written in the first place.

   
  • Sysvinit lacks service supervision. While /etc/inittab provides this capability, management of /etc/inittab is quite restrictive. Upstart eliminates the need for complicated PID file handling for all services. There are bolt-ons that allow you to do service supervision on top of sysvinit, such as runit, but it's clear that these are bolt-ons.
  • Sysvinit does not track dependencies between services. Insserv/startpar provides this on top of sysvinit, but this is again very much a bolt-on, and only handles dependencies at boot/shutdown time (i.e., during runlevel changes) and can't handle any complicated service interdependencies at runtime. Upstart expresses this information in the native service configuration format, clearly and concisely.
  • Sysvinit requires complex shell scripts for each service. While some of the complexity has been abstracted out into common helpers (lsb-functions; start-stop-daemon), having to represent each service's start/stop handling as a program is a severe handicap. Upstart jobs are simple, declarative, easy to maintain, and easy to modify locally as needed. They also eliminate the longstanding nuisance of update-rc.d reactivating services behind the administrator's back on upgrade.
  • Sysvinit is linear. It stopped being a good fit for boot management on Debian the moment Debian adopted udev. There are many race conditions that persist in Debian today when booting with sysvinit, and although these may be fixable, the complexity for fixing them with sysvinit is very high. We're better off switching to an init system that's
    designed to work together with the event-based kernel and udev.

If this was not the case, we would not be anywhere near the angst all of this has caused and we would never have a conversation about it from debian's hard-line stance of "we won't fix it if it ain't broke'

IMO, this is more about change than anything... sure Lennart is there and Canonical is the other side and as Digit pointed out even more choices... What is telling to me is that there seems to be a hell of lot of distro's that are using systemd and that is documented... Which is not the same with upstart AFAIK, especially since there was a claim that it is being used in 'millions of servers, cloud based, etc etc'... This may be true but I have yet to hear it verified

Change is coming, whether we lemmings like it or not... and when the dust settles, I do not think sysvinit will even be a choice anymore because of it's shortcomings

I am very proud to be a part of the VSIDO community, you guys shine above anything I have ever been a part of
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 03, 2014, 07:03:03 PM
Nice post v-ger gives some of the upstart plusses which have been hard to find.  Key point:
Quote
Change is coming, whether we lemmings like it or not... and when the dust settles, I do not think sysvinit will even be a choice anymore because of it's shortcomings
is, I think a fact which your version is about 75 lines shorter than what I tried to say earlier.

One thing I am concerned about and still researching.  It seems that since udev is wrapped in a module in systemd it might be necessary to have a separate udev outside that module.  The issue being one of control and flexibility.  I believe that IG mentioned this as well. Meant to include that in what I posted earlier but forgot.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on January 04, 2014, 01:10:04 AM
With respect to cron being eliminated by systemd, there are systemd services that replace at least some cron functions.

Some display managers do (or did not recently) work properly with systemd, the only one that it seems the systemd devs test against is GDM3 (which depends on most of Gnome 3)

I switched from SLiM to lightdm because at the time SLiM was not being maintained and was not working, that has changed and switching back would not upset me.

I am still on the fence about systemd, I see valid arguments on both sides.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 05:08:43 AM
JeffreyC
Quote
Some display managers do (or did not recently) work properly with systemd, the only one that it seems the systemd devs test against is GDM3 (which depends on most of Gnome 3)

Add this to the concern list from two angles.  One that they do seem too interested only in what they see as "necessary" items and it is a short list.  Their Gnome lust and the fact (for example) that they are pretty much saying "BSD users aren't important screw-em". It's easy as a Debian user to get lost and forget about other 'nixes but history shows the group that is getting told to eat dirt today could be the group you are involved in tomorrow.  I don't like the idea that somebody (particularly Red Hat/Lennart Poettering) are telling me what is of value and what isn't.  This is not the Unix/Linux philosophy or attitude.

FWIW I haven't had a problem with slim or lightdm under systemd. 

 In summary my concerns are (not in order):

I really need more hands on experience with systemd and the nuts and bolts of it.  I (as of now) haven't found anything that I can't do and the bugs that I have found are livable.  Several people have posted that they have problems but I have yet seen anything that isn't or could not be fixed.  My position remains that I have a small sample size of real evidence in favor or against.  Some people I respect endorse it, some people I respect are strongly against it.  This goes for some distro's, it does mean something that Arch and Siduction have embraced it.  About the only conclusion I have come to is one I had a long time ago and that is that sysv is inefficient and should be updated.  Not exactly Einsteinian analysis on my part.

Obviously this discussion is a hot button for me.  I think the last time anything was this polarizing was Gnome 3 and we all know how that turned out.  This feels bigger and more impacting to me but I may just be overstating the case due to ignorance.  It's that ignorance that really makes me uncomfortable.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 04, 2014, 06:06:43 AM
@statmonkey
You should indeed be skeptical.  This is my second go 'round with systemd.  Not that he would remember little ole me, but i have corresponded a couple of times with Lennart.  Both times he was kind and forthcoming.  On the other hand, I've read posts where it almost seemed like he was ready to beat someone to death!  No where in my Linux travels have I ever found a better, more knowledgeable community than right here at VSIDO.  As well as being kind and totally human in their communications!

This time running systemd has been much more successful to me.  I think the cron/grep issue is moot.  The journalctl abilities are getting better everytime I use it.  I believe this time I will finally make the decision to stick with systemd.  I am in no way trying to influence a decision on anyone reading this threads posts, I'm just writing about how things are working out for me.  All of the /var/log files are still there and astutely collecting all the log data they should be.  You CAN still use grep with journalctl.  There is a small bit of reading, or a small learning curve involved.  When new tech comes along, when is this not true?  It is quite painless, and if I can muddle through, anyone can.

To revisit Upstart, the mess with the copyright stuff scares me.  This is totally against my studied philosophy regarding FOSS and OpenSource.  Also Canonical/Ubuntu purposefully limits the amount of dev's allowed to work on the Upstart project.  The opposite of this is true with systemd.  Also with systemd, Lennart is just one of many cogs in the wheel of its development.

Since April of 2012 when udev was merged with the systemd project, the dev's with systemd have worked hard on the upstream maintenance of udev, and indeed there are still udev dev's working with them.

I happen to love sysVinit.  Have used it for years.  Will hate to see it go.  That said, it will go.   :'(  My feelings are, we are better prepared when that day comes, if we already have a plan in place to replace it.  Though the VSIDO alpha ISO I now have installed is an 'alpha' release, it runs as if it were an officially released VSIDO distro.  This says tons about our dev, VastOne.  As a matter of fact, I decided this morning to make it my main goto OS.  Of all the distro's I've tested and used through the years, this one stands out the most because of ONE dev's dedication and willingness to work with a community of users.  He listens!

As to the previous post about Slackware, you had some outstanding insights as to it's developer.  He is a King of Linux, there is no doubt.  But the lack of willingness to try new things over there is a big turnoff for me.  You summed it up perfectly with the term luddite.  For those reading this, that don't know what that means, google is your friend!  I mean absolutely no offense in this regard either!

When it comes to systemd, I believe it is a larger, more open minded, and more dedicated group of dev's than a lot of people want naysayers to believe.  It is totally under the GPL unlike Upstart which is covered by copyright.  It has a much larger team (systemd) that is willing and has proven their dedication to Debian.  I truly fear that Upstart would hurt Debian in the long run, and do not have this fear with systemd.  Reading up on Linus Torvalds calling out Kay Siever (one of the udev dev's) about submitted bugs and the patch made available shortly thereafter was eye opening.  If nothing else it is amusing and shows that Torvalds is still paying attention to all things Linux.  (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1369384 (http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1369384))  I'm sure we're all aware of Torvalds lack of empathy regarding stupidity and or willful ignorance.  He calls it like he sees it and the link above will give you a chuckle.

All of this said, until absolutely necessary, I see no reason to abandon sysVinit at this point.  One benefit to changing right now however, would be to end up on that list of growing distro's adopting systemd as it's default.  I believe firmly that Debian will certainly take that list into account when making their final decision.

One more thing, I think systemd has been working hard to make the cgroups functionality better and better, as well as making udev work better as well.  I would think if it is finally adopted as the default that the module type of operation of udev outside of systemd will be unnecessary.

Just my empty headed observations on this and please, take it all with a grain of salt.  (or a shot of bourbon)   ???
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 06:38:24 AM
Jedi, tremendous post.  Just what I was looking for.  Your opinion matters very much as you are certainly among those Vsido members that make the community so strong, also because over my time here I have learned to respect and trust your opinion and insight.  That is no small compliment, I am by my nature resistant to giving out said trust and respect.  I do not think it is coincidental that there are several people in these forums whose opinions I have come to value.

Quote
This time running systemd has been much more successful to me.  I think the cron/grep issue is moot.  The journalctl abilities are getting better everytime I use it.  I believe this time I will finally make the decision to stick with systemd.  I am in no way trying to influence a decision on anyone reading this threads posts, I'm just writing about how things are working out for me.  All of the /etc/var/log files are still there and astutely collecting all the log data they should be.  You CAN still use grep with journalctl.  There is a small bit of reading, or a small learning curve involved.

Extremely valuable input.  This is exactly the type of comment I have been hoping to generate.  Even if I think you are undervaluing your knowledge.  There is more in that paragraph and post as a whole regarding actual usage of systemd than I have seen anywhere despite reading hundreds of posts on the subject.  In fact there is probably more in this thread than I have seen anywhere.

I am sure I am not alone in saying that your post has influenced me and pushed me a little harder to remove my ignorance and dive in.  I am posting this from a systemd box and have my laptop also configured with alpha so at least for now I am in a position to relieve some of my skepticism or confirm it. 

As for upstart I have already thrown that in the no go pile.  Many reasons that have already been posted including you insights.

Thanks for getting me to re-read the infamous Sievers post.  It did put a hop in my step.  Good (insert your favorite supreme being here) if I got an email like that I would slink back to my cave and never come out. 

Your post is hardly hair-brained and while I am not a bourbon drinker I will have a little Glenfiddich in your honor.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: lwfitz on January 04, 2014, 06:45:02 AM
Wow, I stay away for 6 months and look what I walk in on....... Some seriously good posts in here, time for me to catch up........
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 04, 2014, 07:37:56 AM
Quote
statmonkey said:
Digit - you actually are exactly the one who should be testing this.  [...snip...]  I understand it being a pain in the ass but someone who uses a lot of software is probably going to see different things than those of us who run somewhat minimal setups.
yup.  i totally get that... but given it's the production machine i run "always on", and depend on not only as my heavy workload workstation, but also my server to feed all my other machines...  i'm sure you can appreciate my reluctance to rock its boat. 

... still, that's all rather mute now.  it seemed to have a catastrophic hardware failure last night.  :/  ... systemd was getting pulled in and updated already... idk if that's related.  lol.   
(side note... pcpartpicker (http://pcpartpicker.com/p/2uTm2) is a flippin awesome site)

Quote
various peeps mentioned:
[...snip...]slackware[...snip...]

YUS!  gotta admire the strong steady rock of the unwavering philosophy.  may not appeal to the magpies wanting to jump on every new bandwaggon, but i really admire and am maaaasssively grateful for slackware's persistence as it is, not changing that which isnt breaking, and, as was strongly hinted at earlier, volkerding paying attention and moving out of the way of falling trees.  ;)



besides talk of how foss each of systemd and upstart are, there's something that's been lurking between the lines a lot here, that being, how "unix philosophy" they are.  i mentioned runit earlier...  it's likely one of the most "unix philosophy" of the lot, but then, i gather from a lot of the qualms folks have with sysvinit, it might be covering some of the same ground.  to my way of thinking, the unix philosophy is at the core of what makes our much loved GNU|Linux systems so potent.  much as one might say all that GNU needed was a kernel, all that unix needed, was freedom.  which linux, and gnu gave, respectively.  again, my disclaimer that i dont know enough to say anything for certain, but from the sounds of it, BOTH systemd and upstart piss on the unix philosophy to some degree.  i think that's what makes me most uncomfortable with them.
... the thought of gaining some, but losing a lot.
(i've got an analogy on hand for pharmaceutical medication and side effects, but i cant seem to word it right without muddying my point)


as for the foss'ness of upstart...  it does seem rather weird.  http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/CopyrightAssignment (http://upstart.ubuntu.com/wiki/CopyrightAssignment)  what?  ...  ... why did they even bother?  what are they up to?  ... something fishy.   almost as if it's foss, but a corruption of foss with their own backdoor paranoid powergrab.  *headspin*
GNU GPL licensing depends on copyright legal framework too... it just tends not to do so like anyone wants to retain the power, and to have copyright of the contributors muted by passing on to, in this case, canonical.  o_O  even when fsf or gnu take on board consolidated copyrights, they tend not to do it in this way.  idk... maybe i've just had my thoughts tainted about it with ominous suggestions.


anyhoo... there's still more reading on this subject i want to do (particularly to find out more about the results from those who managed to get openrc in debian working).  this thread's barreling ahead of my researchings. 


oh, one other thing...  to add to the choir of collective self adulation & admiration amongst the vsidoans,
a discordant note if i may...
stfu, u all suck, disapearing up yer own arses!
;D ;D ;D
hehe.  just wanna keep us on our toes, n not get too full (or fool) of ourselves.  ;)  much love.
(but yeah... tis why i am here... "the only way to get better is by playing a smarter opponent" -revolver (2005) (my fave film))


*gone to read more*
oh, as i hit post, it tells me i might wanna check the two new posts... yup:
Quote
pushed me a little harder to remove my ignorance and dive in
  this thread sure excels at that. :)

[edit] also re-skimmed parts of this thread... not sure if i'm adding anything new, just restatements that are getting closer to throwing a tantrum [/edit]
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 04, 2014, 10:47:29 AM
Here is a story my ma used to tell me when I was a child,
Quote
A quail had her nest in a wheat field. She had five babies in the nest. All the little quails were too young to fly. One day the farmer and his wife came to the farm and ma quail and her babies overheard the conversion.
Farmer's wife -> "I think it's time we start harvesting."
Farmer -> "Okay. I'll hire some farmhands and begin harvesting next week."
All baby quails began to cry. Asking the mom "What will happen to us? We can't even fly? And you ma told us it will at least take another month for us to be strong enough to fly."
Ma quail replied "No worries my children. We all will be fine."
The farmer returned next week with his wife.
Wife -> "When on earth are you planning to begin the harvesting?"
Farmer -> "All the farmhands are busy harvesting in the other fields. I can't do it on my own. I'll start as soon as the farmhands are available."
On hearing this baby quails again started crying. Ma quail said "Listen my children. I know what I'm doing. Have no worries. We'll be fine." All baby quails had their doubts but there was nothing they could do.
Much to their relief, joy and surprise a month passed by, They all learned to fly, Neither farmer nor his farmhands came. They asked ma quail how had she known that farmer wouldn't be there to harvest the wheat crop. Ma quail replied,
"Listen my young ones. The person that relies on the help of others doesn't have a choice. He becomes dependent. Dependency brings laziness. Lazy and dependent person loses the control over his own affairs and life. So my darlings you all should learn from this and always strive to become self-reliant and self-sufficient. "
No matter what Debian chooses, It's gonna rely on others.
Hell with upstart, Hell with systemd. Debian, build your own new init. It will take time, effort, blood, sweat, tears. There are people out there who are and who will be ready to give all the required effort-blood-sweat-tears. How long Will it take? A year, May be two at max. For sure sysvinit can be made to serve Debian for another year or two. Yes it might be tempting and attractive at this stage to go for ready-made solutions and spare all the effort-blood-sweat-tears. But we all know that Beggars Can Never Be Choosers.
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 04:03:56 PM
^ That... Great story and then great direction

Well done!

@Digit and Jedi, incredible feedback mates, well done!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 04, 2014, 06:41:56 PM
Quote
Hakerdefo said:
Here is a story my ma used to tell me when I was a child,
Quote
A quail had her nest in a wheat field. She had five babies in the nest. All the little quails were too young to fly. One day the farmer and his wife came to the farm and ma quail and her babies overheard the conversion.
Farmer's wife -> "I think it's time we start harvesting."
Farmer -> "Okay. I'll hire some farmhands and begin harvesting next week."
All baby quails began to cry. Asking the mom "What will happen to us? We can't even fly? And you ma told us it will at least take another month for us to be strong enough to fly."
Ma quail replied "No worries my children. We all will be fine."
The farmer returned next week with his wife.
Wife -> "When on earth are you planning to begin the harvesting?"
Farmer -> "All the farmhands are busy harvesting in the other fields. I can't do it on my own. I'll start as soon as the farmhands are available."
On hearing this baby quails again started crying. Ma quail said "Listen my children. I know what I'm doing. Have no worries. We'll be fine." All baby quails had their doubts but there was nothing they could do.
Much to their relief, joy and surprise a month passed by, They all learned to fly, Neither farmer nor his farmhands came. They asked ma quail how had she known that farmer wouldn't be there to harvest the wheat crop. Ma quail replied,
"Listen my young ones. The person that relies on the help of others doesn't have a choice. He becomes dependent. Dependency brings laziness. Lazy and dependent person loses the control over his own affairs and life. So my darlings you all should learn from this and always strive to become self-reliant and self-sufficient. "
No matter what Debian chooses, It's gonna rely on others.
Hell with upstart, Hell with systemd. Debian, build your own new init. It will take time, effort, blood, sweat, tears. There are people out there who are and who will be ready to give all the required effort-blood-sweat-tears. How long Will it take? A year, May be two at max. For sure sysvinit can be made to serve Debian for another year or two. Yes it might be tempting and attractive at this stage to go for ready-made solutions and spare all the effort-blood-sweat-tears. But we all know that Beggars Can Never Be Choosers.
Cheers.
yus.  well illustrated hakerdefo.

it surely cant be THAT hard.  if a pokey lil distro like dragora can seemingly jump to it without any fuss...
... oh, i wonder if that's part of the problem...  debian lost any chance of a nimble development that can turn on a penny.  ^_^  i hope that shames someone* into trying.  lol.

surely there could be more blue-sky wild-notion research-developments...

like was said in one of my fave foss related talks (http://media.libreplanet.org/u/libby/m/mako/) (and from an ubuntu/debian guy no less), failure is cheap & success is cheap.
[edit] to which, i'll add:  change is cheap[/edit]
... not to mention surely a lot has been (or at least can be) learned from systemd's savage thrust into the heart of GNU|Linux, meddling with important core components, giving things a much overdue radical shake-up.


* no one specific in mind... but if you thought i meant you, then sure, yes, i meant you.  ;D

ps, after half a day of reading through debian mailing list archives on this topic... i see what you guys mean about quality of input.  ^_^  ...makes me feel better about my own poorly informed drivel.  lol
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 08:00:05 PM

No matter what Debian chooses, It's gonna rely on others. ...

Hell with upstart, Hell with systemd. Debian, build your own new init. . But we all know that Beggars Can Never Be Choosers.
Cheers.

Digit re-iterates the point.

This seems at cross purposes to me.  Debian is not going to rebuild an init or to put it bluntly choose the path of most resistance.  To paraphrase v-ger "The Elephant in the room here ..." is that the clearest path if we reject upstart and reject systemd is to develop our own. 

Digit
Quote
it surely cant be THAT hard.  if a pokey lil distro like dragora can seemingly jump to it without any fuss...

Well, they essentially didn't that really looks like a repackaging of sysv to me.  But the point remains that:
Quote
But we all know that Beggars Can Never Be Choosers.

So what do we have?  A choice between accepting the status quo or rising up as a community to move toward our own solution.  Besides impetus what do we need? 

None of these things seem lacking here.  Is it realistic to think we can/would do it?  I don't know, I certainly am not (at this moment at least) knowledgeable enough on any of these subjects but it seems clear that the following is where we are:

Not deciding is a decision (the first one in this case).  Depending on others is waiting for the farm hands.  I am not calling anyone out here, I am just stating the case as I see it.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 08:11:30 PM
^ Similar to discussions I have been raising on the the IRC...

I'll post some of it here...

why is arch and fedora and redhat and all the others using systemd not being blown the fuck out of the water for being such idiots for switching to systemd?

so if I am running systemd on all I do (builds, maintaining websites, support blah blah blah) does that say anything about it being worthy?

At what levels is it measured? (success or failures)

does MS shills ever question init changes... fuck no, we have the pleasure of even being in this init discussion

IMO, it shows just how open foss is... where two different directions (and more)  can be dropped in as a install and go replacement to such a massive integral part of the linux ecosystem

can replacing sysvinit with systemd really be this 'bad' if: 1:  Install replace boot up go 2: Everything I do is working just like nothing happened 3: better memory management? (or so it seems in my tests)

but all of that leads to 4: If ya (systemd) ain't breaking something, just what are you doing? (where is the direct output of what is going on under the covers with systemd)

what is another massive part of the ecosystem that had to change and did despite all the foreblowing of dooooooom? and succeeded...

It really is too bad that the license shit is there for upstart (and canonical) and Lennart is there ... it would be cool to discuss this without those alienating variables

Thoughts from v-ger, nothing more
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 08:37:42 PM
^ Similar to discussions I have been raising on the the IRC...

I'll post some of it here...

why is arch and fedora and redhat and all the others using systemd not being blown the fuck out of the water for being such idiots for switching to systemd?

Because it works and they are satisfied that it works.  See post #39 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....49530#p1149530 (https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic....49530#p1149530)

Quote
so if I am running systemd on all I do (builds, maintaining websites, support blah blah blah) does that say anything about it being worthy?

Not sure I understand this one.  If you are saying if I can do my work and I don't notice systemd is even there isn't that a good thing.  Which I think is what you are asking, then yes.  So far I have been able to do all my core stuff with no issues.

Quote
At what levels is it measured? (success or failures)

It doesn't seem to be measured.  A point I raised earlier and is driving me crazy.  Perhaps the measurement is in fact your first point. Siduction, Arch, Fedora (not dumbarses that group) all have embraced it.  Isn't that success to some extent?

Quote
does MS shills ever question init changes... fuck no, we have the pleasure of even being in this init discussion

IMO, it shows just how open foss is... where two different directions (and more)  can be dropped in as a install and go replacement to such a massive integral part of the linux ecosystem

True, great point.  The fact that we can also talk about brewing our own.

Quote
can replacing sysvinit with systemd really be this 'bad' if: 1:  Install replace boot up go 2: Everything I do is working just like nothing happened 3: better memory management? (or so it seems in my tests)

I am finding the same. [edit] In a sense what better situation can we ask for? I am beginning to wonder if this is a case of so badly wanting to find something wrong with accepting it that we create the illusion that it needs to pass another test to prove it's worth.  Cue my ex-wife nodding  :D[/edit]

Quote
but all of that leads to 4: If ya (systemd) ain't breaking something, just what are you doing? (where is the direct output of what is going on under the covers with systemd)

It's pretty well documented.  It's just verbose, confusing because it's new and a little hard to grok because I am at least not a person who flies at this level (concerned with event monitoring and the like versus script initing). [edit]For a real in depth understanding of what it is doing see the Fedora link below.[/edit]

Quote
what is another massive part of the ecosystem that had to change and did despite all the foreblowing of dooooooom? and succeeded...

Grub was like that without the personalities involved.  Gnome 3 was like that.  Pulse Audio still is but I think in the end it has been a success.  I probably could think of others but you get it.

Quote
It really is too bad that the license shit is there for upstart (and canonical) and Lennart is there ... it would be cool to discuss this without those alienating variables

Thoughts from v-ger, nothing more

Good thoughts and well said about the license and Lennart.  Oh and here is a contrary view http://draketo.de/light/english/top-5-systemd-troubles (http://draketo.de/light/english/top-5-systemd-troubles)  I have also started reading this https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Systemd) which is very informative.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 09:07:20 PM
^ Yes, you got the gist of what I was saying about my core components and work

The link to Arch is broken (404)

The draketo 5 points is dated.. almost 3 years old now, from 2011... not sure if they are still even viable

The Fedora wiki on systemd is an eye opener.. makes it 'look' as if you would be a fool to go with anything but systemd... I am going to compare that wiki to the systemd on Arch wiki (my personal favorite of all information of all time)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 09:13:38 PM
^ Yes, you got the gist of what I was saying about my core components and work

The link to Arch is broken (404)

 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530 (https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530) works for me

Quote
The draketo 5 points is dated.. almost 3 years old now, from 2011... not sure if they are still even viable
Not sure they ever were. See the arch post re linked he addresses them

Quote
The Fedora wiki on systemd is an eye opener.. makes it 'look' as if you would be a fool to go with anything but systemd... I am going to compare that wiki to the systemd on Arch wiki (my personal favorite of all information of all time)
Agreed. Arch is mine as well I offer the Fed as an alternative. Arch more of a how to - Fed more informational.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 09:21:17 PM
Whoever tomegun is, I want him on my team as a developer... WOW...

This is the link from the Fedora wiki I really meant to say about being an eye opener.. the proverbial Why systemd? (http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 09:23:40 PM
Whoever tomegun is, I want him on my team as a developer... WOW...
Yes he hit that out of the park.
Quote
This is the link from the Fedora wiki I really meant to say about being an eye opener.. the proverbial Why systemd? (http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/why.html)

LOL see post #46 in this thread  :D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 09:24:21 PM
I'll go even further...

With what tomegun provided in post #39 there and that link of features comparison, I would say it is a total win for systemd
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 09:27:29 PM

LOL see post #46 in this thread  :D

 ::) 

Sorry, this is happening so fast I am having trouble keeping up...  :'(

 ;D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 09:33:08 PM
No worries.  8)
I am now working through my lists of crazy shit I have done to my system over the past three years and seeing what systemd does with it.  If that goes well I am more than on board and see no issues.  That will take me a day or two but I am actually becoming convinced with each passing test.

BTW my point about building our own was an attempt to present a Reductio ad absurdum.  I just don't think it is realistic to think Debian is going to come up with their own or that we are going to do so or that anyone else is when there is what seems to be a strong viable existing solution.  I think Jedi was also trying to do the same thing with his link to the Kay Sievers blast from Linus.  Apparently we both failed.  It is all well and good to say we should have another alternative.  It is completely irrelevant if no one is willing or capable or both of presenting that alternative.  It is just unrealistic to depend on others and then complain (not directed at anyone but myself) reality forces us to accept ... well reality.  Warts and all.  If the warts are too much you will make the effort to have them removed but if you keep them at some point you have to accept the fact that the warts are there but acceptable.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 09:38:04 PM
From all I have gathered and absorbed, I am comfortable moving VSIDO to systemd...  I think it is important to be on that list of those who have converted ... not that VSIDO is anyone or anything, I do believe it will add value as a Debian derivative...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 04, 2014, 09:45:04 PM
From all I have gathered and absorbed, I am comfortable moving VSIDO to systemd...  I think it is important to be on that list of those who have converted ... not that VSIDO is anyone or anything, I do believe it will add value as a Debian derivative...

At this point I would have to agree (to all except the part of VSIDO not being anyone) and applaud what I think is an informed and rational decision.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 04, 2014, 10:28:24 PM
@statmonkey, Thanks for all the kind words.  My point exactly when linking to the Kay Sievers link.
@VastOne, to think that VSIDO is not "anyone or anything" is simply ludicrous.  This was in a sig on the above linked Arch Wiki; Satisfied users don't rant, so you'll never know how many of us there are.  I think that is very true of VSIDO.  Look at the accomplishments here in the past year.  I'm pretty sure we've gotten 'noticed'.

As one of the original and first users of VSIDO, I am very proud of this distro.  I think that the list of distro's that have adopted systemd has to turn Debian's direction in its favor.  If not I'll have totally misjudged Debian.

For Arch Linux to switch wholly to systemd speaks volumes IMO.  I think Arch is one of the most well known and respected distro's out there.  That said, it is also funny to me, as PackRat mentioned, that Ubuntu still has Fedora listed as having switched to Upstart with Fedora 9.  Fully 11 versions ago if my count is correct.  This is another blatant lie on the part of Ubuntu/Canonical/Upstart.  Fedora switched completely to systemd at Fedora 15.  These are HUGE distro's IMO in the Linux world.  To disregard their move to systemd is, to me, sort of like the ostrich sticking it's head in the sand to hide/avoid danger.  Sure it is peaceful and dark under there, but your ass is still hanging out, and a big target.  sysVinit will be going away.  To not accept that is IMO being the ostrich.

Your decision to go with systemd is totally a good idea!  This thread has ended up being totally informative and unlike some of the other sites I've visited, totally without all the vitriol and FUD.

Nice job, good decision...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 10:31:59 PM
Thanks jedi... your a valued and trusted user whose support I greatly appreciate

@stamonkey, same goes for you and thank you both for the legwork you put into this discussion
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 04, 2014, 11:21:48 PM
*sniff sob bleet*

my remaining concern that's not just probable fud, is that this contributes to a sort of intelectual entropy in the broader exosphere... in that this helps solidify the compatibility separation from non linux unixes just a little more.  yep, it may well indeed be good for us...  we shall see...  but i think systemd addoption may be a sad note for broader foss.

still... we can always write our own re-implementation of systemd's ideas with all the posixy-unixy-portability if-fest stuff intact.  ^_^  ;)  and minus the "hostile upstream" feature.  ;D hehehe

as i said in a chat somewhere, something like: "smarter minds than i, will figure it out".

3 times in the past i've used systemd.  two of which, were on exherbo... which was hard to tell what i thought of it then, exherbo itself being so alien to me on the whole.  the other time... i never got to boot with it.  my hardware failed before a reboot occurred.  ^_^ 

switching to systemd's a far more trivial thing than all the fuss might imply...  but how about switching back... is that equally as trivial?  ... y'know, just in case there's something unpleasant for anyone.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 04, 2014, 11:33:09 PM
^ Yes...

Code: [Select]
apt-get install sysvinit
Code: [Select]
apt-get purge systemd systemd-sysv
reboot
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 04, 2014, 11:41:43 PM
easy as piss.  no worries then. 

:) 

woohoo, systemd ootb in vsido!

*converted*
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 05, 2014, 01:03:08 AM
*sniff sob bleet*

my remaining concern that's not just probable fud, is that this contributes to a sort of intelectual entropy in the broader exosphere... in that this helps solidify the compatibility separation from non linux unixes just a little more.  yep, it may well indeed be good for us...  we shall see...  but i think systemd addoption may be a sad note for broader foss.


My fear as well as I stated earlier. 

BTW I have an existing VSIDO install that isn't systemd is it the reverse of the above to add it or is there more?
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 05, 2014, 01:08:01 AM
^ Aye....
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 05, 2014, 04:43:59 AM
^ Aye....
thanx Cap'n
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 05, 2014, 08:53:46 AM
Here are the people on the technical committee that is going to decide on the default init system for Debian,
Andreas Barth
Bdale Garbee
Colin Watson
Don Armstrong
Ian Jackson
Keith Packard
Russ Allbery
Steve Langasek
Now I do not question or doubt integrity of the members but I'm gonna make some assumptions.
Ian Jackson, Colin Watson and Steve Langasek were or are employees of  Canonical. So I'm assuming three votes going in the favor of upstart.
Don Armstrong in his recent comments has indicated that he doesn't like the complexity of systemd.
Bdale Garbee is highly unlikely to go for systemd.
Andreas Barth and Russ Allbery are going to go for systemd if we go by their recent posts and comments.
Keith Packard has his cards closed to his chest so the direction of his vote is unknown.
So if we conclude by the above assumptions upstart is going win by the votes of 5 to 3 or 6 to 2.
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 05, 2014, 05:02:06 PM
^ That's funny in an ironic sort of way. Most any other situation, the 3 that are also employees of Caononical would have to recuse themselves from voting because of conflict of interest.

@vastone - should you decide to go forward with systemd, are all the system admin apps installed by default (bum comes to mind) systemd compatible?
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 05, 2014, 05:12:32 PM
^ I agree, having those 3 involved in the decision seems a bit unfair, which is what jedi has been saying all along that scares him.  I like to think that decisions will be based on technical merit alone, but that seems doubtful

I have tested every part of what is stock in VSIDO and all the build tools I use including VirtualBox, debian-live etc etc and have not found anything that will not work with systemd or that has any negative impact at all
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 05, 2014, 06:08:23 PM
^ That's funny in an ironic sort of way. Most any other situation, the 3 that are also employees of Caononical would have to recuse themselves from voting because of conflict of interest.
The other night I was discussing this very thing with someone.  I would say it is more than funny and ironic, it's dishonorable.  There I said it.  If you have a vested interest in a program (in this case) honor would compel me and precedent would imply that you would either abstain or excuse yourself.  Like I accused someone else of, I guess I am a Luddite on things of this nature or I am just weird.  Thank you though PackRat for saying that it makes me feel that I am not a lone man in the wilderness.

I really do think Debian will go the Canonical Way and posted my reasons earlier.  (shudder) The hanging chad in this situation remains the political implications not the technical side of systemd.  I can't find anything that I can't make work or doesn't just work.  But the philosophical issues:

systemd not being portable
Debian's position/future behavior

are all that I am really bothered by.

If VastOne goes in this direction does what Debian does really matter?

LOL I keep saying to myself stfu on systemd but then someone posts something I can't help but respond to.

[edit] Maybe we are missing something obvious.  Digit and hakerdefo have both posted arguments in favor of looking at alternatives to systemd and not accepting the status quo because it is there.  Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong level.  Given that you have Arch, Fedora, etc. who have already accepted systemd (I know of a couple of other Debian distro's that are seriously considering it but have promised not to say more) the status quo that won't be accepted here is not a re-invention of the init level and a better solution but the re-invention of Debian itself or the creation of an alternative.  I am not sure I have ever felt that such a thing was really possible before.[\edit]

Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 05, 2014, 06:42:32 PM

If VastOne goes in this direction does what Debian does really matter?

That is the problem I am facing though.  I want to  remain as close to the core of Debian as possible and obviously  init is part of that core

I am also curious as to how this will fallout, no matter what the decision is.  Debian's track record on releases that center around stable is well documented.  Will the decision be made in time to change over in this cycle of stable, no matter which it is?

I think what I will do at a minimum is wait for the decision to be made from Debian, which has already supposed to have happened.  Once that is done, and the decision is for upstart, I would think a complete rebuild of VSIDO with the core that includes upstart will be built and tested. 

I will also build a Alpha release now with upstart so that we can have a side by side comparison of systemd and upstart

Will let you all know here when it is done
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 05, 2014, 06:44:06 PM

I really do think Debian will go the Canonical Way and posted my reasons earlier.  (shudder) The hanging chad in this situation remains the political implications not the technical side of systemd.  I can't find anything that I can't make work or doesn't just work.  But the philosophical issues:


be interesting if some of the Debian dev's split off and start a new project/fork should upstart get adopted.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 05, 2014, 07:14:34 PM

That is the problem I am facing though.  I want to  remain as close to the core of Debian as possible and obviously  init is part of that core

At what price?  At any price?  Just asking.  Having a test version with upstart would be a good thing (if not too much work) but your research has led you to favor systemd.  I am struggling how to put this correctly.  There are times when a relationship is just grown out of.  I personally have a loyalty issue.  I am extremely loyal to people who do me a good turn, often to my own detriment.  The favor is paid back and I continue to feel I owe them something long after the ... balance in the relationship has gotten extremely one-sided.  It is a painful lesson I learn repeatedly so I am perhaps over-sensitive. 

The point I am attempting to make is that you have built a brilliant distro.  To my personal needs it is the best I have ever used and combines all I could want.  If I had the time or inclination to build my own I don't think I would do much different and could only hope to achieve half as much.  The distro seems to be predicated on the concept of the right tools/environment/configuration for a semi-technical user to boot and be comfortable immediately without all the cruft, retaining a low footprint and memory.  What goes on in the user space and below is what is best regardless of what others may promote but what works and is solid. All indications at this point lead me to believe that systemd meets both criteria and upstart does not. 

Early in this thread I warned that this is the type of topic that can become consuming (it has) and can easily make the best of us lose focus of the end-goal.  I don't presume to know your end goal, but that statement above sets off some alarms for me.  I trust your judgement fairly implicitly, your considered opinion is of high value but if there is indeed a fork in the road I have far more faith in your analysis and decision making skills than a committee of Debian ne'er-do-wells.

I hope the respect and admiration that I have is reflected in the above, I like Debian a great deal but if they accept upstart it's a no go for me and I will part ways.  The reasons have nothing to do with upstart and everything to do with upstart.  The jig, as they say, would be up and Debian as we know it done and dusted.  This for me is a line in the sand, because once Canonical gets their hooks set into Debian it's over.   Perhaps this is an over-reaction but I doubt it.   :( 

Yes, I am an annoying pain in the arse.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 05, 2014, 07:52:13 PM
I like annoying PITA's...  ;D

I think you misunderstood my intent, or I did not speak it clearly.  Want and need are the questions at hand.  As much as I want to stay at the core of Debian, I do not need to and obviously the community will make that decision

I have questions though on what you have said... Is your dislike of upstart purely philosophical?  Is it just because of Canonicals involvement?  The Canonical license?  Debian simply not existing anymore if they adopt upstart?   If upstart was the best thing ever and blew anything else away, would you still feel the same?

I watched this video from DebConf13 Why Debian needs Upstart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUOAUQJ-y00#)
I was happy to see the angst at the end of the presentation by the questions raised by Ian Jackson who was clearly frustrated.  I was also shocked at how flippant Steve Langasek was about the license issues Ian was raising.  I think I understand now why the decision is taking a long time from the technical committee

This is a huge deal for Debian as we know it and your concerns are valid.  I did not mean to imply I had changed my opinion on the matter, I was only suggesting that we should take a look at both to be sure due diligence has been done

Pottering was also at that DebConf13 presentation and had some questions and also gave his reasons why systemd should be used also ... you can see that on one of the links from that video
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 05, 2014, 08:27:29 PM
Here is a pretty good video that shows the differences between sysVinit, upstart and systemd at a functional level

Init, Systemd, and Upstart - CompTIA Linux+ LX0-101, LPIC-1: 101.1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTFLEXYY6jY#)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 05, 2014, 09:01:51 PM
I like annoying PITA's...  ;D

I think you misunderstood my intent, or I did not speak it clearly.  Want and need are the questions at hand.  As much as I want to stay at the core of Debian, I do not need to and obviously the community will make that decision

I have questions though on what you have said... Is your dislike of upstart purely philosophical?  Is it just because of Canonicals involvement?  The Canonical license?  Debian simply not existing anymore if they adopt upstart?   If upstart was the best thing ever and blew anything else away, would you still feel the same?

I was happy to see the angst at the end of the presentation by the questions raised by Ian Jackson who was clearly frustrated.  I was also shocked at how flippant Steve Langasek was about the license issues Ian was raising.  I think I understand now why the decision is taking a long time from the technical committee

This is a huge deal for Debian as we know it and your concerns are valid.  I did not mean to imply I had changed my opinion on the matter, I was only suggesting that we should take a look at both to be sure due diligence has been done

Pottering was also at that DebConf13 presentation and had some questions and also gave his reasons why systemd should be used also ... you can see that on one of the links from that video

[edit]Just watched Lennart his social skills are limited aren't they.  But he does come off like a human versus the robots from Canonical.

My problem with upstart is also technical.  In summary:

Systemd is a complete rethink and rebuild of how the init system is conceptualized and makes full use of modern systems.

Upstart seems a slapdash attempt to get control of the init process but at the same time not really alter the issues that are there in sysV.  It's kind of like the first Windows GUI.  Just creating an icon and a batch script and calling it a graphical user interface doesn't make it one.  Just adding a layer on sysV and calling it a new init system doesn't really make it one.  Finally socket handling or lack there of.[/edit]

Just watched the upstart one and will watch Lennart's show and the new link.  Thank you.  I think my thoughts are confirmed by two things.  One is at around the 16:20 mark where Steve essentially says "it won't work because it's upstart dependent and not doing it with upstart makes it fail" he re-iterates the same idea with the GPG question at the end.  You have systemd clearly admitting that there are going to be dependencies with systemd while the upstart people are saying no we are not causing dependencies but if you don't write it specifically dependent on upstart it won't work.  Like the "corporations should be allowed to control and have the license for what you write" statement, I can't accept that as a foregone conclusion and the insidous-ness (word? I think not) of the smarmy Steve and his glossing over made me throw up in my mouth.  The guys question on the event structure is legitimate and laughed off.  I guess this only confirms my feeling that today the battle is over upstart but the war is over control of Debian.  Once you bend over the first time .... sorry that is a little graphic.  In answer to your questions.

My concern is over the license - first and foremost to agree to that gives Canonical a theoretical ownership of a core process in Debian.  That foothold at the base is a predication to control.  Power is never given it is taken and Shuttlegates is who he is.  Having control of Debian's user base and the ability to add those installed systems as "yours" is worth $MILLIONS to Canonical.  Don't kid ourselves this is what it is about.

My concern is over the control of Debian and it's direction.  Listen to what is said, it's already Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that and Debian is thrown in as an after thought.  Already a step-child without the formal adoption.

My belief is that once Canonical gets control of the init process the ability of ANYONE to stop them from the Ubuntu-ization of the whole Debian is gone.  We have to have Unity because it works so well with Upstart, etc.

LOL at Steve and his "I don't understand why the license is so important to Debian people".  I will with-hold further comment due to this being a family site :)

Bear with me for a personal aside.  At one time in a galaxy far away I was involved in corporate takeovers.  One of the strategies we used quite successfully was the takeover by proxy of boards and decision making.  I often got companies without ever having to pay anything by just controlling decisions and influence.  Once a certain momentum was reached I never had to ask but just say, well we already did this and that so this is just the next natural step.  The former owners never knew what hit them.  There is an eerie similarity here and I think that is what has my spider-sense tingling.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on January 05, 2014, 10:25:58 PM
statmonkey, you hit the nail on the head with the above thoughts. I've gotten a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach as to the possible consequences of Debian adopting upstart. I can only hope I'm dead wrong if it does happen.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: lwfitz on January 06, 2014, 05:25:42 AM
I have spent a lot of time over the last few days thinking about this discussion while working on Windows/Outlook and cursing profusely.

While I have some experience with systemd, I have none with upstart so I guess my opinion is somewhat uninformed and biased based on functionality on a number of different hardware configurations.
I run both Intel and AMD along with ATI and Nvidia graphics and have never had any real issues with systemd. So I think you can see where my vote goes.

As for the copyright agreement, well, I personally would prefer to see such a large part of this amazing opensource operating system stay opensource.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 06, 2014, 06:49:16 AM
Wow.  What can I say that statmonkey hasn't?  Not much if anything at all...

At around the 40 minute mark in the first video posted above, when Steve Langasek starts in with the "what's up with Debian and licensing", I definitely threw in the towel on Upstart.  Not that I hadn't already, but when Canonical starts telling dev's to send in their work, and don't bother signing the CLA, and see what happens, that was it for me.  I had read in a couple of different places on the net where some of Ian's (Ian Jackson, former Canonical/Ubuntu dev) posts sounded like he was going to go for Upstart.  I have to say after watching the above, that I don't think you can 'bank' his vote on Upstart after all.  He got pretty intense the second time around with the microphone.

Quote from: statmonkey
At what price?  At any price?  Just asking.  Having a test version with upstart would be a good thing (if not too much work) but your research has led you to favor systemd.

I'm not sure I would even try Upstart at this point. (it would sure be a hard thing to do)  Steve Langasek so upset me with his cavalier attitude about the licensing issue, that I can't possibly see any way I would ever use it.  The really, really sad part about that is that I know for a fact that sysVinit will be gone soon.  I think I already posted in this thread somewhere that it was an inevitability.  It just has too many flaws and shortcomings for "today's Linux".  Debian has as much as said so.  So, in answer to statmonkey's question about price, I'm not sure there could be a price placed on it.  Debian has been around for coming up on 21 years.  I believe that with this one vote the Tech Committee has in front of them, they could undo everything Debian has done.

 I also watched more than one Lennart Poettering video when I finished the one featured above.  He may not have the best social skills in the world, but compared to the two guys (Steve and James) giving the Upstart pitch, he was far and away more informative.  Also, did anyone count how many times they said Ubuntu in their presentation?  I almost thought it was a commercial for Canonical.  (well I guess it was wasn't it?)  Anyway, tho I can't follow all of the technical details they talk about when comparing the two init systems, I know enough to smell a turd on a paper plate, even if it is trying to be hawked as shit on a silver platter.

In reality, by my definition, Upstart really isn't a complete init system in the first place.  To top that off, listening to them trying to answer the questions about some of the functionality and them saying "well we'll try to fix that at some point in the future" (I'm paraphrasing here, watch the video) kind of says a lot.  By comparison, systemd seems to me to already be a valid replacement init system.  Would Arch, or RedHat/Fedora, two of the giants in the realm of Linux, have switched to it already?  Of the over 400 dev's working on systemd, 241 of them came over from udev when they merged them.  Need something patched?  Send it to us!  With Upstart, need something patched?  Sign a copyright agreement and maybe we'll consider it.  As to dev's at Upstart, I know they have at least 3, Scot, James, and Steve.  I've also heard that Canonical limits the amount of dev's on their team and, in the end, has total control over it.

As statmonkey stated, once Canonical has copyrighted code running in Debian, it is the beginning of the end for Debian.  No longer will they be adhering to the FSF, FOSS, GNU, OpenSource philosophy they were founded on.  Not only that, but it will allow for a privately held company to suddenly be making decisions for a very large part of Linux's community.  It will also make it easier over time for them to actually end up "owning" Debian.  So for me this whole thing stinks.  It just does.  I'm actually pretty stunned that Debian has let it get to this point.

I hope Debian is made up of more than just this Tech Committee and has the sense to step back and look at who is voting, and also how they voted.  Freedom right?  I want to know the names of the guys that decided with one vote to destroy what I consider to be the best thing that ever happened to Linux.  (Sorry RMS)  Speaking of him, I can't even begin to imagine his thought process on this whole debacle.  I suppose we'll find out soon enough whether or not there are any ethics and integrity left at Debian.

Last, there has to be an init system.  We know it wont be sysV.  OpenRC, from all I've read, is not in the running for several good reasons.  Upstart is totally not acceptable as an alternative simply because of the CLA/Copyright issues.  (I don't care if the Upstart code is handed down from a deity on golden discs of wonder)  That leaves systemd.  I don't believe, as I once did that this is the lesser of two evils.  I believe it is the only logical choice that a FOSS base could make.  Not just that, but I believe it is the BEST fit and a SOLID choice that will take Debian far into the future.  I also happen to believe that it follows the KISS principle in that it ends up making things simpler in the long run for the folks building distro's.  When you look at systemd in depth, at what it can do, and what it gives in benefits over sysV, then there really is no choice is there?

Yeah, sorry for the novel length post, but as you can probably tell this is getting under my skin just a little bit...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 06, 2014, 08:31:30 AM



Wow.  What can I say that statmonkey hasn't?  Not much if anything at all...

 :D Well for somebody who doesn't have much to say, you sure managed and managed it well.

Quote
At around the 40 minute mark in the first video posted above, when Steve Langasek starts in with the "what's up with Debian and licensing", I definitely threw in the towel on Upstart.  Not that I hadn't already, but when Canonical starts telling dev's to send in their work, and don't bother signing the CLA, and see what happens, that was it for me.  I had read in a couple of different places on the net where some of Ian's (Ian Jackson, former Canonical/Ubuntu dev) posts sounded like he was going to go for Upstart.  I have to say after watching the above, that I don't think you can 'bank' his vote on Upstart after all.  He got pretty intense the second time around with the microphone.

Anyway, tho I can't follow all of the technical details they talk about when comparing the two init systems, I know enough to smell a turd on a paper plate, even if it is trying to be hawked as shit on a silver platter.

Wow Jedi, I didn't know you could even get this fired up.  I have always thought of you as the mellow one of the bunch. LOL at the shit on a silver platter.  I love that one.  I agree that Ian seems pretty unlikely to vote for upstart especially after Steve dissed him with the legal committee comment.  Yes, as I said before Lennart at least comes across as a human being.  I think most of his presentation problems have to do with English not being his native language and don't think he realizes how poorly he comes off some times.  I am much more inclined now to give the guy a break on a lot of that.

Quote
In reality, by my definition, Upstart really isn't a complete init system in the first place.  To top that off, listening to them trying to answer the questions about some of the functionality and them saying "well we'll try to fix that at some point in the future" (I'm paraphrasing here, watch the video) kind of says a lot.  By comparison, systemd seems to me to already be a valid replacement init system.  ...  I'm actually pretty stunned that Debian has let it get to this point.


All valid points but most of all I agree, why has Debian even let this get this far?  I no longer see anything to consider after just a week of researching this.  Great job pointing out the "we'll fix that later".  There were so many things going on in their presentation it was hard to grok all the obfuscations.

Quote
  Not just that, but I believe it is the BEST fit and a SOLID choice that will take Debian far into the future.  I also happen to believe that it follows the KISS principle in that it ends up making things simpler in the long run for the folks building distro's.  When you look at systemd in depth, at what it can do, and what it gives in benefits over sysV, then there really is no choice is there?

I also think this point is why Ian, Lennart, etc seem so frustrated.  Also I noticed in the 3 or so videos of Lennart's I watched he acknowledges the elephant in the room openly talking about the differences between upstart and systemd while the upstart guys just dance around and say "well we could tell you why this is so super duper but we don't have enough time".  He also was completely transparent about the dev process and who is involved while they were ... shady.  Finally want to point out that their installed base was all ubuntu customers they had no distro's really to talk about being on board only cloud/ubuntu and LOL wooo weeee the ubuntu phone platform!!!! Gotta get me one of them babies.  If I wasn't nervous about them before I sure as heck am after watching their performance.

Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 06, 2014, 10:25:02 AM
Oh Boy. I'm really glad I joined VSIDO community. What a wonderful discussion. Great job @statmonkey, @Digit, @jedi, @PackRat, and of-course the boss @VastOne.
Here is a very detailed comparison of Upstart, OpenRC and systemd projects,

http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?project_0=Upstart&project_1=OpenRC&project_2=systemd (http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?project_0=Upstart&project_1=OpenRC&project_2=systemd)

And I don't have a problem with systemd technically but the people behind systemd are very low on my trust ratings. One is Good Ol' Lennart and he is very popular nowadays so I won't talk about him here. Another key person behind systemd is Kay Sievers. I'll just point to this message in a thread at lkml.org where one Linus Torvalds told Kay Sievers,
Quote
Kay, you are so full of sh*t that it's not funny.
Here is the link to the message. You guys should read the whole thread as it will shed some more light on the people who are developing systemd.

https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/3/484 (https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/10/3/484)

Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 06, 2014, 04:56:56 PM
This entire 'choice' is debian bug #727708 (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html) and as most of you who have read it, know how scary this is

On the #debian-systemd IRC channel, I have asked why version 208 has not been made as a package for experimental at a minimum.  The answer I have received scares the shit out of me.  For anyone who does not know, we are testing version 204 and updates to 205-208 have significantly made improvements to systemd and squashed some of the naysayers arguments.  It still has bugs, specifically to not cleanly killing network-manager but IMO that should not stop packaging until a decision is made from the committee..

I could build 208 but the principle behind this decision to not package it leads me to believe the writing is already on the wall
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 06, 2014, 05:01:42 PM

Here is a very detailed comparison of Upstart, OpenRC and systemd projects,

http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?project_0=Upstart&project_1=OpenRC&project_2=systemd (http://www.ohloh.net/p/compare?project_0=Upstart&project_1=OpenRC&project_2=systemd)

Cheers.

Wow, the numbers on that comparison are staggering.  The commitment is obvious and the work being done shows at all levels

It's too bad those of us on Debian wanting to see the latest builds cannot since packaging to Experimental has stopped
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 06, 2014, 06:19:08 PM
This entire 'choice' is debian bug #727708 (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00296.html) and as most of you who have read it, know how scary this is

On the #debian-systemd IRC channel, I have asked why version 208 has not been made as a package for experimental at a minimum.  The answer I have received scares the shit out of me.  For anyone who does not know, we are testing version 204 and updates to 205-208 have significantly made improvements to systemd and squashed some of the naysayers arguments.  It still has bugs, specifically to not cleanly killing network-manager but IMO that should not stop packaging until a decision is made from the committee..

I could build 208 but the principle behind this decision to not package it leads me to believe the writing is already on the wall

Interesting thread, thanks for including it.  I have not seen the statement "we are not going to package until a decision is made"  is that out in the wild?  If I get a moment I may package 208, I am reading now on the network-manager issues.  I had to laugh now one of the Canonical guys is saying that the CLA is no different than the BSD license. HA!

That comparison that hackerdefo posted is likewise informative.  Gosh they are moving a lot of code. Not sure if that is good or bad. 

Also, Colin (I believe) seems to be pushing a dual implementation with both.  Framing it in that light I realize that for me the LICENSE is not the only problem.  I realized that I could not accept that as it would still mean getting into bed with Canonical and having 3 developers in the Canonical Cabal significantly responsible for a major portion of what should be an open/foss system base.  This non-transparency is the issue for me.  I am not sure if there is any level of "significantly better" that upstart could be that would get me over this hump.  There is just no choice. 

In the Linux world we have often had to live with lesser solutions (drivers come to mind) for the freedom that we have.  Yes 'nix is super duper and all that but we have willingly made trade-offs (learning hand coding, cli stuff, accepting that sid will break things) in order to get the flexibility, creative environment, etc. that this world offers us.  If you are telling me to keep my freedom I have to accept that systemd will have some flaws, that it might be slightly less capable than upstart and that I have to put up with the fact that I am not exactly a Lennart/Kay Sievers fan boi and am counting on them.  Sign me up.  It is probably my antidisestablishmentarianist bent but screw - em.  If that means that I have to move to a non-Debian build to get away from having someone (ANYONE) own a major piece of the code and be able to put limitations on my freedom than I will poke my eyes out to spite my face. I know what is going on with systemd.  I know who is doing what and when.  I know where the traps are.  In other words better the devil you know than the one you don't.  I think more and more Canonical is a very worthy devil.  Just my .000000000000000002 cents.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 06, 2014, 08:03:54 PM
^ Both you and jedi are really lighting this thread up, well done!

For more arguments from the TC team and what they are going through, check this one out ... Pretty intense (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00327.html)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 06, 2014, 09:06:34 PM
[edit] From Ian directly:
Quote
So, to recap this and my previous mails and summarise:
 * upstart is simpler than systemd (which leads to fewer bugs, etc.)
 * upstart integration fits better into a daemon source code
 * upstart is easier to package for than systemd
 * upstart's community is much better to work with
 * systemd's non-portability is (for me) a near-blocker
 * upstart's remaining disadvantages are readily fixable SMOP
 * upstart is therefore ready for adoption in jessie
 * sysvinit has many longstanding bugs and deficiences
 * openrc is not ready (I couldn't evaluate it due to lack of a manual)

I therefore conclude that the default init system for jessie should be
upstart.


Thanks,
Ian.
[/edit]
Full post here
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00182.html)
Is it Game up?

I have to quote one from this exchange https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00286.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00286.html)

Quote
On Mon, 2013-12-30 at 18:58 +0000, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Also, I get the impression me that the "integration" of much of this
> functionality into the systemd source package has been done for
> political rather than technical reasons.  Indeed to the extent that
> there is a problematically tight technical coupling between these
> components, I find it difficult to avoid doubting the good faith of
> the people making those decisions.  At the very least, I worry that
> the systemd project as a whole is far too willing to impose decisions
> of all kinds on its downstreams.

Your own expressed preference for upstart appeared to be very much
driven by political rather than technical considerations. Using the same
terminology you do, would it not be entirely fair to say that your
decision to support upstart was made in bad faith?

There is comedy, there is slapstick and there is unintentional comedy the gift that keeps on giving.  Two adult males trading this kind of commentary just puts a hop in my step. 

But from the same post a re-iteration of the point I made in my last post.  Finally someone says it ....
Quote
> Furthermore, I am much less worried about Debian going it alone
> (although, of course, it's not alone) than you seem to be.  We have
> historically been entirely unafraid to do our own better things, even
> if it is more work and takes us longer.

All interesting stuff.  This is a black hole, for which I really don't have the time.  But it is informative and entertaining.  If it weren't so serious a subject I would probably be on the floor.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 06, 2014, 09:19:23 PM
Most polarizing events do capture fancies we never get to see...  The funny thing is, Unity did exactly the same thing and fractured a community to the point of no return

The only difference here, you had a choice with Unity... you could leave Ubuntu/Canonical

Obviously you can do the same with Debian, but like Jedi said earlier that after 21 years of existence, it will be a very painful death

For VSIDO as long as systemd is available it will be used... and I wonder how that would even pan out...

I honestly do not know what I would do if upstart is chosen... (from a personal level) ... I would still build and provide for VSIDO, but would I still use it (debian)?

Probably not in good conscience ...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 06, 2014, 09:35:25 PM
Most polarizing events do capture fancies we never get to see...  The funny thing is, Unity did exactly the same thing and fractured a community to the point of no return

The only difference here, you had a choice with Unity... you could leave Ubuntu/Canonical

Obviously you can do the same with Debian, but like Jedi said earlier that after 21 years of existence, it will be a very painful death

For VSIDO as long as systemd is available it will be used... and I wonder how that would even pan out...

I honestly do not know what I would do if upstart is chosen... (from a personal level) ... I would still build and provide for VSIDO, but would I still use it (debian)?

Probably not in good conscience ...

Very hard to come to terms with this at the moment.  There is a Buddhist precept: Doing wrong without knowing it is wrong is not harmful, doing wrong knowingly, with conscious awareness no matter what the reason creates negative karma. Knowing this precept and not following it is karmic disaster. To paraphrase the Thai version "tam dee dai dee, tam chua dai chua" do good get good, do bad get bad.  In other words I would be done with Debian. The core of why I am here is the open community and contributory nature.  I know that removing that is wrong, I cannot accept wrong. 

How could you, in good conscience provide a solution that violates and uses tools that you don't believe in/are against your core principles?  Not being accusatory it is a real question/quandry that I am struggling with.  I think I need a step back as I come to accept that it looks extremely likely that upstart will be in the next release and in doing so a core of the distribution (even if not used) would be in violation of the principles behind it?

Note that Ian does not address any of these issues in his plus for upstart.  Apparently he got over his license/small dev community concerns.

There religion, philosophy and politics all in one post.  I have now violated all the rules of the forum.  Please take away my hall pass. 
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 12:24:47 AM
Like you statmonkey, if upstart is chosen I am walking away from Debian and in doing that, VSIDO would most likely come to it's end
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 07, 2014, 01:29:54 AM
After following these posts here;  Bug#727708: init system other points, and conclusion

I hate to say it, but I don't see Upstart losing.  I do see Debian losing.  I also acknowledge that if Upstart is chosen, I'm through with Debian...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 07, 2014, 02:12:17 AM
Like you statmonkey, if upstart is chosen I am walking away from Debian and in doing that, VSIDO would most likely come to it's end

You could base it on Slackware current and use Gslapt/spalt-get for the package management - need to change the name, though.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on January 07, 2014, 02:24:07 AM
As a still primarily Slackware user I find this of interest. However, I've cut my teeth on Debian based distros, and grown to truly lub VSIDO.
I will keep my thoughts positive and anticipate the best 8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on January 07, 2014, 02:48:33 AM
I prefer this analysis of why systemd is the better choice. And I hope commonsense prevails.

Quote
We seem to be at the point of the process where at least those of us who
did early investigation are stating conclusions.  I think I have enough
information to state mine, so will attempt to do so here.

This is probably going to be rather long, as there were quite a few
factors that concerned me and that I wanted to investigate.

The brief summary is that I believe Debian should adopt systemd as its
default init system on Linux.  There are two separate conceptual areas in
which I think systemd offers substantial advantages over upstart, each of
which I would consider sufficient to choose systemd on its own.  Together,
they make a compelling case for systemd.  This position would have
substantial implications for upgrade paths and for non-Linux ports; I'll
discuss a bit of that below, but most of it in the separate branch of this
bug report that Ian opened on that topic.

Below, I first discuss the other choices before us besides systemd and
upstart.  Then I look at a straight technical comparison between the two
init systems, and finally look at issues of maintenance, community,
ecosystem, and portability.  The three main criteria on which I was
evaluating both systems were technical capabilities, surrounding
ecosystem, and portability.  The latter two turned out to be deeply
entangled, so I discuss them together.

Read more:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 02:50:33 AM
^ As do I, the problem is that the deck is stacked on that TC and the consensus is that it will be a 5-3 vote for upstart based on what has been documented

And I have thrice read all of this... my eyes are bleeding   ???
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on January 07, 2014, 03:17:34 AM
Thrice!

upstart can't replace all of systemd, so why just replace a component of systemd with upstart.

It should go to a community vote!

If TC go for upstart all TC ctte positions should be declared vacant and elections held!

Where to next FreeBSD, Haiku, .....???


I'm totally dismayed by their stupidity....:(
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 03:59:45 AM
I always hope that logic and rationality prevail ozitraveller but the problem with sense is that it is anything but common - if you want proof read that whole Ian Jackson post.  He comes off to me like a spurned female rather than an adult making a professional decision.

In the post you linked to I was struck by these paragraphs:

Quote
One of the points that I think may have been obscured in the discussion,
but which is important to highlight, is that basically all parties have
agreed that Debian will adopt large portions of systemd.  systemd is an
umbrella project that includes multiple components, some more significant
than others.  Most of those components are clearly superior to anything we
have available now on Linux platforms and will be used in the distribution
going forward.

In other words, this debate is not actually about systemd vs. upstart in
the most obvious sense.  Rather, the question, assuming one has narrowed
the choices to those two contenders, is between adopting all the major
components of systemd including the init system, or adopting most of the
major components of systemd but replacing the init system with upstart.
Either way, we'll be running udev, logind, some systemd D-Bus services,
and most likely timedated and possibly hostnamed for desktop environments.

I think this changes the nature of the discussion in some key ways.  We're
not really talking about choosing between two competing ecosystems.
Rather, we're talking about whether or not to swap out a core component of
an existing integrated ecosystem with a component that we like better.

I think I had read this before but not sure I "got" it.  So conceptually I am imagining one of my team members coming to me and saying:

1. We have a rival solution that has some nice features but it also has some clear cut disadvantages to our in house solution. But it's no problem because even though they have been working on it for 3 years and haven't addressed those issues they are trivial to address and they will after we buy it.

2. Oh by the way the solution that we have in house is better and adds a lot more and also is an integrated solution.  In fact, even if we select the flawed rival we will keep all the integrated stuff from the in house solution and the flawed rival will rework their stuff to work with the innovative stuff from our in house team. But the in house solution isn't portable to other 'nix's and even though they say that it can be addressed at some point I think it yet they won't. The rival soltuion won't dove tail as well as a fully integrated solution would but it will be trivial to fix and they will do so after we buy it.

3. One more thing, I know all current systems use parallel daemons and IPv6 has been around for years (as have sockets) but they didn't write those into their rival solution.  But it's trivial and they will do so after we buy it.

4. Oh and one more little thing. In order to accept this rival solution they want us to sign an agreement that all our contributors license their code through them and of course in case of disputes over ownership I would guess they would win since they hold the licensing and I know that is a violation of our founding principles but it is trivial and they say that maybe they would look at reviewing it after we buy it.

5. BTW the in house solution was worked out by a large portion of our community and has been accepted by some of our most loyal members of the community and the rival is a small group that operates behind a corporate logo and we really don't have any influence or input directly into what they do and they haven't even named a project lead but that is trivial and I am sure they will fix it after we buy it.

6. So in conclusion I have decided that we will swap out that portion with the rival teams because the guys who do the in house team didn't accept my suggestions and I don't like them they are hard to work with and they picked on me and took my lunch money.

After I told the guy to clean out his desk I would probably start over.  I mean really this whole thing is just surreal to me.  Why is there any discussion?  What strikes me in reading these is that the guys who support Upstart either have no technical support for their positions (it's always about response times and niceties or in the case of Steve its some obscure point that no one cares about).  The systemd supporters give facts, details about where systemd is better etc.  and actual processes they went through in detail to examine the differences and how they came to the conclusion.  It's a little Wizard of Ozish "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain".

I really have nothing to add and guess at this point I am just venting my frustration.  In a way it's like watching a friend die on the operating table for no reason.  You can clearly see the doctor making mistakes and he is just cavalierly going along.  I hope I am wrong and there is an upset here but I am preparing for the grieving process just the same.  My apologies if this is the same stuff over again.  I did at least try to make some new points.  Not that it matters.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 07, 2014, 04:15:08 AM
@statmonkey, wow just wow!  Would you mind if I posted that on my blog?  Giving you full credit of course!  It's been a stampede there the last couple of days because I copied a couple of my posts here to there. (jedsdesk.com)  Let me know...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 04:28:27 AM
@statmonkey, epic post man... did you write that on the fly or have to prepare it beforehand? 

Very succinct!   :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 04:37:34 AM
@statmonkey, wow just wow!  Would you mind if I posted that on my blog?  Giving you full credit of course!  It's been a stampede there the last couple of days because I copied a couple of my posts here to there. (jedsdesk.com)  Let me know...

You don't need to remind me by the way, I visit your site already. 

Sure Jed anything in this thread for that matter.  What's mine is yours. Hmm, there's an idea. Would you like my ex-wife's phone number by the way?  ::)

v-ger.  I am a fly guy you should know that by now  :D  (checking my fly now in fact)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on January 07, 2014, 04:58:00 AM
@statmonkey, thanks for that, and as to the phone number, nahhh.  Happily married 20 years now.  If this one doesn't work out I think I'll call it quits on marriage!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on January 07, 2014, 05:24:37 AM
@statmonkey, awesome post and I can sense your frustration running right through that explantion/comment. I have been following along with the discussion and cannot for the life of me understand how upstart could possibly be considered. I'm honestly dumbfounded! Hopefully work will not stop on systemd and the decision, if upstart is chosen, will be reversed. I feel sorry for the devs having their excellent work dismissed for "crap".
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 05:31:07 AM
I prefer this analysis of why systemd is the better choice. And I hope commonsense prevails.

Read more:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00234.html)

I have just reread Russ Alberry's position paper.  I think that is at least THHHRRRIIICCCCEE!!! The v-ger magic number and I really think it should be on the required reading list.  Not only is it the anti-thesis of the other posts in that thread it is exactly what it should be.  Well thought out and reasoned.  Supported by facts, logic and rationale.  Among the highlights not yet posted here:

Quote
Debian has
more than enough hard integration problems to solve without creating new
ones for ourselves unnecessarily.  But that's the key word: unnecessarily.
If we do have a reason for doing this, we should seriously consider it.

Therefore, I believe the burden of proof is on upstart to show that it is
a clearly superior init system along some axis, whether that be
functionality or portability or flexibility or maintainability, to warrant
going to the effort of disassembling a part of the systemd ecosystem and
swapping in our own component.

Quote
I should state up front that, in making these sorts of decisions around
free software projects, I have a relatively high future discount rate.  In
other words, I give substantially less credit to something that does not
exist now but could exist in the future.

Quote
Right now, neither systemd nor upstart work on non-Linux platforms.
Therefore, right now, adopting either of them means that we either
jettison our non-Linux ports or adopt a transition plan that retains
support for sysvinit scripts.

Note: they are hammering systemd for not being portable and yet ... yep it's true they are not portable and have presented no plan for getting there.

Quote
So, in short, I consider portability to be a possible benefit of upstart,
but I'm inclined to discount that advantage for several reasons.  One,
it's not yet actually materialized and still may not, and two, systemd
porting looks like it's going to be on the table regardless.

Quote
One of the reasons why I'm leery of the future portability argument for
upstart, and one of the reasons why I'm leery of upstart in general, is
that I'm quite worried upstart will prove to be a blind alley.

Quote
Red Hat adopted upstart but never did a wholescale conversion, and then
  abandoned upstart in favor of systemd.  ... But I
  think it's still worth noting that the only non-Ubuntu major adopter of
  upstart backed away from it.

Quote
I'm concerned that, if we adopt upstart, in two or three years we'll end
up wanting to do the same thing that Red Hat did, back out, and switch to
systemd.  That would be a huge amount of wasted effort.

This is a conclusion that I totally agree with.  What is not being said is the whole why would this happen.


WHAT IF - the why is ...  That Canonical could give a flying diminutive rodents lower locopodus whether upstart works for Debian or not.  Similar to what might have happened with Gnome and Unity, they worked them like circus dogs to get their stuff into and tested with Gnome, took patches from Gnome devs under the CLA, patched Gnome code without GPL'ing those patches and passing them along and then abandoned the Gnome devs.  Wrapping it all up with a little bow by stealing a significant base of users and pointing fingers at Gnome and saying look those guys never followed through. Plus parading Unity as if they made it out of whole cloth.  Of course the Gnome guys could not do anything but look like fools because Canonical didn't share their code and they thought they were in a relationship. They could not do anything because of the CLA and were just stuck looking like chumps.

In this theoretical case it's to get access to the Debian install base, integrating into systemd to the level of the parts being inseparable, getting help from the Debian dev community all under CLA, then not passing back that code and then dumping Debian, taking the now fully integrated and inseparable Upstart/udev/logind/etc. spinning it as their own (lets see last time they called it unity, this time maybe they call it ReachAround) and acting like they are the wronged party.  Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.  Think Lucy and the football for you old guys like me.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on January 07, 2014, 05:51:19 AM
If I planted/buried upstart in my backyard what would it grow into? A stunted mutant maybe.....

Now about the ex-wife's phone number?? ;)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 05:56:10 AM
If I planted/buried upstart in my backyard what would it grow into? A stunted mutant maybe.....

Now about the ex-wife's phone number?? ;)

How about me burying my ex in your backyard and I give you upstarts phone number?  :D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 05:58:53 AM
Oh my... the dogs have been let loose...  8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 07:11:10 AM
Oh my... the dogs have been let loose...  8)

Hmm on second glance those final two paragraphs do seem a little harsh  :-[

There now you won't have to worry about libel quite so much.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 07, 2014, 04:27:30 PM

Where to next FreeBSD, Haiku, .....???


Where to next? I'll stick my neck out here - so bookmark this post  :D - if upstart is adopted, the purists devs will leave and fork (probably not the correct word here) debian into a new distro with systemd. More power to them if they do.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 04:29:07 PM
^ I see that happening as well... and not as far out as you would think for such a hefty project
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 05:36:53 PM

Where to next FreeBSD, Haiku, .....???


Where to next? I'll stick my neck out here - so bookmark this post  :D - if upstart is adopted, the purists devs will leave and fork (probably not the correct word here) debian into a new distro with systemd. More power to them if they do.

Bookmarked.

I would say this is already in the works to some extent.  The only word in that I would disagree with is "purists" I don't see us as purists and we are sure as heck of a mind on this.  I am never able to predict group think and how the mass reacts but:
People who write api's for init level connections are not going to like this
People who are GNU/Foss champions are not going to like this
People who believe in the Debian Social Contract are not going to like this
Programmers/coders who can look at this and see the silliness of pulling apart an integrated package to slap in something that probably has a lower ceiling and less capability are not going to like this
People who need to access sockets/IPv6 are not going to like this
People who are just anti large external influences are not going to like this ...

The list goes on and on.  I think it is a pretty big list.  What about the committee people who seem rational here like the guy who wrote the really detailed summary.  Is he going to be able to continue to work for something that is so obviously wrong a decision on all levels?

I think there is a huge shakeout and I agree with you, this community is resilient there will be something rise out of the ashes.  I don't think I am just spreading sunshine here either, the more I think about it the more positive I am.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 05:45:00 PM
^ For some strange reason, 

Divinyls - I Touch Myself (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv-34w8kGPM#)

suddenly goes through my head....

Russ Alberry has already publicly stated that no matter the decision made he would honor and support it
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 07, 2014, 06:17:31 PM
This discussion thread has shown emotional and philosophical sides of members.
But realistically speaking Debian is choosing between devil and deep blue sea. It loses and suffers no matter what is chosen. Only gainers here will be RedHat or Canonical.
And how can we blame RedHat-systemd or Canonical-upstart? They have their own interests. And they should and they will protect their profits-interests. systemd and gnome go hand in hand cause that's what serve RedHat the best. On the other hand Canonical has it's own plans of unity across PC-TV-Phone. And their shuttle is going to steam toward that goal.
In the end remember what ma quail said to her babies "Be self sufficient and don't rely on others."
Debian sadly is going to learn this lesson the hard way no matter what it decides.
I would only hope and request VastOne to continue the journey of VSIDO regardless of what Debian chooses.
P.S. I won't kid my self with the idea of some Debian developers creating a Debian-systemd fork.
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 06:59:56 PM
This discussion thread has shown emotional and philosophical sides of members.
But realistically speaking Debian is choosing between devil and deep blue sea. It loses and suffers no matter what is chosen. Only gainers here will be RedHat or Canonical.
And how can we blame RedHat-systemd or Canonical-upstart? They have their own interests. And they should and they will protect their profits-interests. systemd and gnome go hand in hand cause that's what serve RedHat the best. On the other hand Canonical has it's own plans of unity across PC-TV-Phone. And their shuttle is going to steam toward that goal.
In the end remember what ma quail said to her babies "Be self sufficient and don't rely on others."
Debian sadly is going to learn this lesson the hard way no matter what it decides.
I would only hope and request VastOne to continue the journey of VSIDO regardless of what Debian chooses.
P.S. I won't kid my self with the idea of some Debian developers creating a Debian-systemd fork.
Cheers.

Vastone you are correct.  He did say that.  ...  :-X

hakerdefo and you are also correct sir.  But, tilting at windmills is needed sometimes and philosophical/emotional input helps (in the proper perspective in decision making).  Your comments on Red Hat are particularly apt and it should not be swept under the table that they exist.  To that end another person who I respect in the community has weighed in on this (somewhat dated but certainly still valid)  http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/red-hat-flag/ (http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/red-hat-flag/) there are quite a few links off IG's original post and all worth reading.  Whether I agree with his position or not I do respect it.  What they do discuss is that there are people working on forks and different answers.  The momentum is not there but there is potential.  I am not quite ready to throw in the towel on Linux yet.  Debian is though walking around with a fork in its back (I am not sure if that is literal or not). To your credit you have remained in the either choice is not a choice as opposed to the lesser of two evils approach I think I have taken. 

I would like to second the idea that VSIDO continuing.  Then again I am not the dev that would be facing significant challenges regardless of what road is chosen.  This is a vibrant, interesting, intelligent community (present company excluded) and most of all an excellent well thought out and put together distro. 

I do remember when the Unity/Gnome disaster hit and there was a lot of doom and gloom.  I now look at that as a blip.  Perhaps this will be the same.  There are some awesomely creative/innovative people out there and I chose not to underestimate them.

P.S. I freely confess my open desire to kid myself relentlessly that someone will overcome this challenge and the core principles that Debian was founded on will live another day.  :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 07, 2014, 07:45:41 PM
Quote
Canonical could give a flying diminutive rodents lower locopodus whether upstart works for Debian or not
oh i think they'd care, so long as debian is still their upstream, and only so far as it benefits them.



i've remarked a few times how in some ways systemd is like xkcd 927, (done poorly, lennart's reasoning in #27 (http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html), etc), but at least it is going for a unifying standard... upstart seems rather more antithetical to that sort of thing.

on the systemd myths page (http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html) (which i'm glad i've given a second read~ or is it third... maybe i read it long ago too), i'm still miffed by #15 (relates to 10 too, but is less obvious in the wording/admission)...  oh, and the bit about being more like bsd in organisation...  that's perhaps not a plus to some people...  i like the clean coherence of bsd systems... i'm less cheery about their organisational structure and ethos.

i havnt read nearly as much about upstart, and before this started, had a lot of misconceptions that have since been cleared up (some misconceptions about systemd too, though i at least had some accurate notions about it), but my grievances and misgivings about this upstart (at least as it is in my imagination) seem all the more dire.  ...  doubly so to think what it'd cause in the broader debian community that we're part of.  "that we're part of"~ heh, yeah, until (((IF))) upstart is hoisted upon us...  ...  surely not though...  not as an imposition, surely not. 

oh how we'd all flee....

hrmm... maybe that'd be a good thing in a way.  an unpleasant transition for sure... but maybe it'd do the foss community good to get shaken up n scattered around other distros some more.  too many of us use debian, and especially so, too many of us use, and have used, only debian.  ... by definition, that makes those for whom that's true, "debtards".  same as "wintards", in that, it's all they've ever known, and yet still claim it's the best (if only by their continued use, without seeking out alternatives).


sry if that's an offensively bitter pill for anyone to swallow.   ^_^  it's not necessarily derogatory.  it's possible it is the best, for you.


it's good to get some diverse knowledge and learning.  that way we can always come back home some day (even if it ends up being a new home) with new tricks up our sleeves.  ;)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 08:32:12 PM
oh how we'd all flee....

hrmm... maybe that'd be a good thing in a way.  an unpleasant transition for sure... but maybe it'd do the foss community good to get shaken up n scattered around other distros some more.  too many of us use debian, and especially so, too many of us use, and have used, only debian.  ... by definition, that makes those for whom that's true, "debtards".  same as "wintards", in that, it's all they've ever known, and yet still claim it's the best (if only by their continued use, without seeking out alternatives).


sry if that's an offensively bitter pill for anyone to swallow.   ^_^  it's not necessarily derogatory.  it's possible it is the best, for you.


it's good to get some diverse knowledge and learning.  that way we can always come back home some day (even if it ends up being a new home) with new tricks up our sleeves.  ;)

Well said.  That was where I was trying to get to in my other post.  I've used Gentoo, BSD, etc. other 'nix's but agree I have probably become a debtard.  I don't take that as a negative.

Pain is growth.  Not to get all Jungian but this is just a truth in the real world.  I think all of us have become to comfortable and taken a path of least resistance.  Whether I think Debian is "best" or not I don't know but I do think it is comfy and easy to administrate etc. The overall installed base of Debian is so much higher for a reason.  Doesn't mean others do not offer benefits, it's just that Debian has a lot of features and abilities that I appreciate. That being said it is amazing how revolting I found IgnorantGuru's comments about the death of Debain 2 years ago and how sensible he seems now. 

I don't think Mr. Savant you have said anything offensive at all.  Then again I may not be the best judge as I am sure some of my posts are unintentionally offensive. 

Hmm, what did the v-ger edit out?????
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 07, 2014, 08:45:51 PM
...tilting at windmills is needed sometimes and philosophical/emotional input helps (in the proper perspective in decision making)...
...This is a vibrant, interesting, intelligent community (present company excluded)...
...P.S. I freely confess my open desire to kid myself relentlessly that someone will overcome this challenge and the core principles that Debian was founded on will live another day.  :)
Yes emotions are what differs us from robots.
Re present company excluded, your well informed posts and your great passion made this a great thread.
Amen to Debian core principles living for another day, for forever.
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 07, 2014, 08:56:43 PM
@Digit, thanks mate, well said

Most of us who really give a shit about this are hardened distro whores who have been all over the map.  For me personally, seeing Debian take a hit would be a good thing especially if a large group branches out to yet more opportunities.  I am also looking forward to the backlash and will enjoy seeing Debian's arrogance over this getting headlined worldwide... Debian Sells Out!  That will be an interesting discussion.

As much as I appreciate and even admire IGuru, some of his tomes have come off as a bitter individual who demands change or expects things to be done as he wants on his timeline... Not that is any different than a lot of us, maybe it is just done with a bit more angst... actually, he reminds me a lot of Lennart

Is this personal and emotional to me? Of course it is... In the last week I have gone from being so extremely proud of this community (of which I am even more proud of now) to talking about shutting VSIDO down... I think I may have said this on the IRC also, that this would be a good way to break up all the derivatives of Debian..  Digit said it would be a good idea to pool the resources of the derivatives and create something from that... That would be interesting but not likely to happen.. Of course this leads me to wonder how other Debian distrolettes are viewing this and if they are as passionate about it as we are...

Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

Now onto that nap I said I was going to take

Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 07, 2014, 09:05:59 PM
I said I won't kid my self with possibility of a Debian fork because Debian is huge. It's gigantic. In 2012 Debian's value was estimated at a whopping 19 billion dollars. RedHat's market capital is yet to reach 10 billion dollars mark. Canonical hasn't even crossed 1 billion mark.
See why they are interested in Debian.
Yes starting and running fork won't require 19 billion dollars but you can bet that it will be a huge sum.
Money talks whether we like it or not.
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 07, 2014, 10:08:56 PM
This is all about how to eat an elephant.  You are not going to get it done in one go.  The fact remains that nature abhors a vacuum and that large sucking noise you hear is the wind being sucked out of Debian.  It is all about the Benjamin's and I think throughout this thread we have acknowledged that fact.  One hell of a lot more than anyone in the committee posts or conferences.  What those numbers suggest is that Debian itself is a large corporation and when viewed like that none of this should be surprising.  Probably the most surprising thing is that so many of us have a passion for a corporate entity that does not care or think we are a part of it.  It's sobering to realize that I am defending a 19B behemoth.  It would seem the tree is falling and I am not seeing it.

One thing that I have come to appreciate over the years is how "not special" I am.  I don't say that disparagingly but just matter-o'-fact.  I am an average person, with an average outlook.  I tend to find that even my most outlandish beliefs are more common than I would expect.  My point is that while I do think this thread is exceptional and the contributions of all of you are above the pale, I have to believe that more than most active members in any distro using Debian are probably having a great many of the same concerns, outlook and responses.  I can't predict the future nor will I try but one of the things I would discuss with Rip Vast Winkle after his nap is certainly more fleshing out of his perspective regarding what can be done with VSIDO if (apologies to Jedi) the turd hits the silver platter. 

The core of this distro is his vision, the user base and the contributions of all.  Like it takes village to raise a child it takes a community to make a distro.  There are opportunities here, painful as they may be in execution.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on January 08, 2014, 02:36:28 AM
Here,here, VSIDO into the future, in whatever mantle we deem it for continuance.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: sqlpython on January 08, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
I have been reading these 9 pages with interest and appreciation as the passion is what has made Linux a Giant.

 For me this past year, my installs are some systemd and some sysv.
This is my 20th year this year as a Linux user. My 14th year Windows free personally (exception is an install at work along side the Linux Box)..
So, this isn't a knee jerk reaction for me. However after 9 pages of interesting discourse, some clarity, some illumination and lots of personal passion and beliefs we come to ...
 To quote:
Russ Alberry has already publicly stated that no matter the decision made he would honor and support it
Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

The above quotes say it all and I will subscribe to both in my practice..
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on January 08, 2014, 08:38:21 AM
I have been reading these 9 pages with interest and appreciation as the passion is what has made Linux a Giant.

 For me this past year, my installs are some systemd and some sysv.
This is my 20th year this year as a Linux user. My 14th year Windows free personally (exception is an install at work along side the Linux Box)..
So, this isn't a knee jerk reaction for me. However after 9 pages of interesting discourse, some clarity, some illumination and lots of personal passion and beliefs we come to ...
 To quote:
Russ Alberry has already publicly stated that no matter the decision made he would honor and support it
Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

The above quotes say it all and I will subscribe to both in my practice..

Heading out of town early in the morning and just thought I would check up on the forum and see what in new.  I was confronted with this absolutely beautiful post.  Well played.  I will take these thoughts with me and be better for it.  Thank you.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 08, 2014, 09:44:50 AM
Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both
An open appeal to VastOne. Just for the sake of change, learning and passion build a VSIDO test image featuring runit.
Here is a very good rant from a guy who loves and uses BSD-style init, hates upstart-systemd and makes a good case for runit,
http://wizardofbits.tumblr.com/post/45232318557/systemd-more-like-shit-stemd (http://wizardofbits.tumblr.com/post/45232318557/systemd-more-like-shit-stemd)
And the official runit links,
http://smarden.org/runit/benefits.html (http://smarden.org/runit/benefits.html)
http://smarden.org/runit/replaceinit.html#sysv (http://smarden.org/runit/replaceinit.html#sysv)
I had a look but it's beyond my capabilities but it shouldn't be too hard for you. Give it a go, Who knows you might...
Cheers
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 08, 2014, 11:56:58 AM
Quote
Vasty spoketh these words:
Digit said it would be a good idea to pool the resources of the derivatives and create something from that
  ... not in those words...  but sure... i'll bend to accept that approximation without calling my lawyers to ask about starting a case, mentioning words like defamation, libel, slander and misrepresentation.  lol

Quote
hakerdefo spoketh these words:
An open appeal to VastOne. Just for the sake of change, learning and passion build a VSIDO test image featuring runit.

eeehehehehe.  oh how that had me burst into gleeful giggles and delight. ^_^

yeah, methinks we'd all be surprised just how many init systems there are out there, when we include all the rarely implemented, never implemented, and half-written alpha init systems there are.   ... i was reminded of this when doing some more reading about exherbo last night, where there was mention of their "genesis" init system... i doubt it's had a commit for years, but even as it got mentioned, there followed two names of other init systems i didnt recognize. 
never understimate the power, nor the evil, of "advertising and marketting"...  which much of this $eem$ to revolve around.  if it were technical matters alone, i'm sure we'd be seeing more fully-comprehensive comparison charts, ever being updated and repopulated with the esoteric outliers, ready to give them fair equal consideration based on the pertinent details alone.  ... it's rather like watching mainstream media coverage of the "two party state" bs, this is.  we dont so often hear about the hundred other parties who lack the big money from either aristocracy&corporations or unions&corporations.  XD  hehe.  ... and to further analogy... how about a coalition government... a hybrid init system.   

debian might decide to go with upstart... but does that really mean we have to too, if we want to stick with a debian base?     currently, as it is... we're afforded the choice... they're all in the repo... sysvinit, upstart, systemd...  should we really gaf if debian decides to change its default?   i know we're all passionate about our views, principles, and preferences in our technical specifics, but maybe that passion is blinding us to the freedom we'll still be afforded... right?  ... or am i missing how much of a fundamental (and backwards incompatible) change to the system the decision to go for 'systemd|upstart' would bring?



calm down, calm down.  everything's fine.  that tree's not rrrrreally falling, it's just an optical illusion from all the discussionohol we've been drinking.  ;)


ps,  effin' GOLD posts there guys.  :)   ~ i especially got a kick outta the "how to eat an elephant" & "wind being sucked out of debian" bit.  XD
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 08, 2014, 04:38:51 PM
... or am i missing how much of a fundamental (and backwards incompatible) change to the system the decision to go for 'systemd|upstart' would bring?
If we take case of Arch Linux systemd is currently required by 97 packages. This include essential things like lightdm, mesa, networkmanager, pulseaudio, xf86-video-ati, xf86-video-nouveau, spacefm, apache etc. etc.
Here's a complete list,
https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/i686/systemd/ (https://www.archlinux.org/packages/core/i686/systemd/)
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 08, 2014, 06:55:05 PM
[edit]might as well ignore this post.  skip to the next. - Digit[/edit]

oh how that makes me crave the likes of gentoo, with USE flags, where easy management of avoiding that sort of thing could happen.

~ having said that, i've just looked at spacefm in gentoo, and it doesnt have any useflags for init systems...
gentoo can do its openrc, or systemd, both are officially supported.  spacefm seems not to depend on systemd there...  i'm just gonna chalk that up to a quirk of arch, n hope debian remains a broader beast.

just to carry on using spacefm as an example...  even if arch and gentoo are indeed very different distros... i think it's good to see how systemd availability needn't necessitate absurd dependencies.  how debian ends up doing this in the future though...  i do fear that being binary based, they'd be less inclined to offer multiple versions that avoid hog-tying users to such drasticness, especially given the recent murmerings.  ... but then, i'll cling to hope in how debian has historically been less inclined to be devs inconsiderate of users, like arch might be accused of.   

sry, rambling, lost in fud.  ^_^

some gentoo'ish output to illustrate for the drastically curious.  ^_^
Quote
$ eix spacefm                                                                                                                                       [24/1952]
* x11-misc/spacefm
     Available versions:  ~0.8.6 0.8.7 ~0.9.0 ~0.9.1 ~0.9.2 **9999 {+startup-notification}
     Homepage:            http://ignorantguru.github.com/spacefm/ (http://ignorantguru.github.com/spacefm/)
     Description:         A multi-panel tabbed file manager

Quote
$ equery g x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7
 * Searching for spacefm0.8.7 in x11-misc ...

 * dependency graph for x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7
 `--  x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7  amd64
   `--  dev-libs/glib-2.36.4-r1  (dev-libs/glib) amd64
   `--  dev-util/desktop-file-utils-0.21  (dev-util/desktop-file-utils) amd64
   `--  virtual/udev-208  (>=virtual/udev-143) amd64
   `--  virtual/freedesktop-icon-theme-0  (virtual/freedesktop-icon-theme) amd64
   `--  x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4  (x11-libs/cairo) amd64
   `--  x11-libs/gdk-pixbuf-2.28.2  (x11-libs/gdk-pixbuf) amd64
   `--  x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.22  (x11-libs/gtk+) amd64
   `--  x11-libs/pango-1.34.1  (x11-libs/pango) amd64
   `--  x11-libs/libX11-1.6.2  (x11-libs/libX11) amd64
   `--  x11-misc/shared-mime-info-1.2-r1  (x11-misc/shared-mime-info) amd64
   `--  x11-libs/startup-notification-0.12  (x11-libs/startup-notification) amd64
   `--  dev-util/intltool-0.50.2-r1  (dev-util/intltool) amd64
   `--  virtual/pkgconfig-0  (virtual/pkgconfig) amd64
   `--  sys-devel/gettext-0.18.2  (sys-devel/gettext) amd64
   `--  sys-apps/sed-4.2.1-r1  (>=sys-apps/sed-4) amd64
[ x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7 stats: packages (16), max depth (1) ]

Quote
$ emerge -p spacefm

These are the packages that would be merged, in order:

Calculating dependencies ... done!
[ebuild  N     ] media-fonts/dejavu-2.33  USE="-X -fontforge"
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/freetype-2.4.11  USE="bzip2 -X -auto-hinter -bindist -debug -doc -fontforge -infinality -static-libs -utils"
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/gobject-introspection-common-1.36.0
[ebuild  N     ] virtual/ttf-fonts-1
[ebuild  N     ] x11-themes/hicolor-icon-theme-0.12
[ebuild  N     ] perl-core/Storable-2.390.0
[ebuild  N     ] virtual/perl-Storable-2.390.0
[ebuild  N     ] dev-perl/XML-Simple-2.200.0
[ebuild  N     ] x11-misc/icon-naming-utils-0.8.90
[ebuild     U  ] dev-libs/glib-2.36.4-r1 [2.32.4-r1] ABI_X86="(64%*) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7%* -python2_6%"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/xproto-7.0.24  USE="-doc" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/xextproto-7.2.1-r1  USE="-doc" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/gobject-introspection-1.36.0-r1  USE="-cairo -doctool {-test}" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/inputproto-2.3  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/renderproto-0.11.1-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/damageproto-1.2.1-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] dev-util/desktop-file-utils-0.21  USE="emacs"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/compositeproto-0.4.2-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/randrproto-1.4.0-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/pixman-0.32.4  USE="sse2 (-altivec) (-iwmmxt) (-loongson2f) -mmxext (-neon) -ssse3 -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/libpthread-stubs-0.3-r1  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/kbproto-1.0.6-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/xf86bigfontproto-1.2.0-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] media-fonts/font-util-1.3.0
[ebuild  N     ] x11-misc/util-macros-1.17.1
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/xtrans-1.2.7  USE="-doc"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-themes/gnome-icon-theme-3.8.3  USE="-branding"
[ebuild  N     ] dev-libs/atk-2.8.0  USE="introspection nls {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/fixesproto-5.0-r1  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXdmcp-1.1.1-r1  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXau-1.0.8  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] media-gfx/graphite2-1.2.1  USE="-perl {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] virtual/freedesktop-icon-theme-0
[ebuild  NS    ] dev-lang/python-3.3.2-r2 [2.7.5-r3, 3.2.5-r3] USE="gdbm hardened ipv6 ncurses readline sqlite ssl threads xml -build -doc -examples -tk -wininst"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-proto/xcb-proto-1.8-r3  ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_3 -python2_6 -python3_2"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libxcb-1.9.1  USE="-doc (-selinux) -static-libs -xkb" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)" PYTHON_SINGLE_TARGET="python2_7 -python2_6 -python3_2 -python3_3"
PYTHON_TARGETS="python2_7 python3_3 -python2_6 -python3_2"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libX11-1.6.2  USE="ipv6 -doc -static-libs {-test}" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXfixes-5.0.1  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXrender-0.9.8  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXext-1.3.2  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/gdk-pixbuf-2.28.2  USE="X introspection -debug -jpeg -jpeg2k {-test} -tiff"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXcursor-1.1.14  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXdamage-1.1.4-r1  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXrandr-1.4.2  USE="-static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXi-1.7.2  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/libXcomposite-0.4.4-r1  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/xcb-util-0.3.9  USE="-doc -static-libs {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/xcb-util-wm-0.3.9  USE="-doc -static-libs {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/xcb-util-keysyms-0.3.9  USE="-doc -static-libs {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/xcb-util-renderutil-0.3.8  USE="-doc -static-libs {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/xcb-util-image-0.3.9  USE="-doc -static-libs {-test}"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/startup-notification-0.12  USE="-static-libs"
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/fontconfig-2.10.92  USE="-doc -static-libs" ABI_X86="(64) (-32) (-x32)"
[ebuild  N     ] app-admin/eselect-fontconfig-1.1
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4  USE="X glib svg (-aqua) -debug -directfb -doc (-drm) (-gallium) (-gles2) -legacy-drivers -opengl -openvg (-qt4) -static-libs -valg
rind -xcb -xlib-xcb"
[ebuild  N     ] media-libs/harfbuzz-0.9.23  USE="cairo glib graphite truetype -icu -introspection -static-libs"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/pango-1.34.1  USE="introspection -X -debug"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.22  USE="introspection (-aqua) -cups -debug -examples {-test} -vim-syntax -xinerama"
[ebuild  N     ] x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7  USE="startup-notification"

The following USE changes are necessary to proceed:
 (see "package.use" in the portage(5) man page for more details)
# required by x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.22
# required by x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7
# required by spacefm (argument)
=x11-libs/cairo-1.12.14-r4 X
# required by x11-libs/gtk+-2.24.22
# required by x11-misc/spacefm-0.8.7
# required by spacefm (argument)
=x11-libs/gdk-pixbuf-2.28.2 X
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 08, 2014, 07:01:24 PM
[edit]nope, might as well skip this post too... i didnt look deep enough.  this post is about direct deps only... -Digit [/edit]

oh, er... i suppose i am likely better off just posting this for a clearer comparison, rather than information overload about one package gentoo doesnt have depending on systemd like arch does.   so, yeah, ignore that previous post, which i've left there for curiosity, integrity, novelty, posterity, whatever.

gentoo's list of packages that depend on systemd:
Code: [Select]
$ equery d sys-apps/systemd
 * These packages depend on sys-apps/systemd:
sys-auth/pambase-20120417-r3 (systemd ? >=sys-apps/systemd-44-r1[pam])
virtual/logger-0 (>=sys-apps/systemd-38)
virtual/service-manager-0 (kernel_linux ? sys-apps/systemd)
virtual/udev-200 (>=sys-apps/systemd-200:0[gudev?,introspection?,keymap(+)?,kmod?,selinux?,static-libs(-)?])

just 4 it seems.  ^_^

just sayin... we dont need to be hogtied...  i hope debian do things sensibly.   (heck, no guaruntees it'll be systemd at this point ~ yikes ~ anyone know how many packages in noobloatu depend on upstart?)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 08, 2014, 07:10:31 PM
oh balls.

posted too soon... shoulda investigated further.

newer systemd's on gentoo, when i look deeper, yes... they too depend on systemd, thnx to udev depending on systemd.

/me spares the forum his rage posts from irc upon realising this.

sorry for the blurt of ill-thought forum posts.  i've lowered the standard i'm sure.  :/

"find another"... echoes in my brain from a creeping reluctant revelation that my earlier proposal(s) may be the ONLY alternative.

ps
/me does "equery d -aD --depth=99 sys-apps/systemd" and cries out "there is no hope in hell"
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 08, 2014, 07:13:18 PM
^ That is one of the reasons why Iguru created and recommends udevil... to eliminate the need for udev and systemd dependencies
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: hakerdefo on January 08, 2014, 08:38:42 PM
^ That is one of the reasons why Iguru created and recommends udevil... to eliminate the need for udev and systemd dependencies
But in case of Arch Linux udevil requires udev and udev is part of systemd so udevil also requires systemd. Circle is complete. Lennart wins.
This is all coming from a distro that believes(?) in the principles of KISS and user choice.
Lennart is by no means fool. But his ideas often take inspirations from monopolistic apple and microsoft. The idea of systemd for example was clearly inspired from apple's launchd. Now apple design it's computers with a complete integration in mind. Hardware, O.S, Drivers, Applications are tightly integrated and therefore they are naturally dependent on eachother. And that's what monopolistic apple wants. But this model when applied to the world of open source operating systems is a sure shot failure. Oopsy enough rant for the day...
Cheers.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 08, 2014, 08:42:53 PM
^ I do not know Arch at all...

Why would udevil require udev in one platform and replace it in another?  That makes no sense to me at all
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on January 08, 2014, 11:22:00 PM
The most positive thing that I can definitely say about systemd is that it is FOSS,  from wikipedia;
systemd is published as free and open-source software under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public License version 2.1 or later.

Worst case if it is chosen/used and RedHat/Gnome et-al get sticky later, it can be forked.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: sqlpython on January 11, 2014, 08:15:00 AM
Quote
I was confronted with this absolutely beautiful post.

 Thank You sir for the kind review.
The truth is easy and always plays well.

 I continue to visit this forum due to the quality of the people here and because to my eyes VsidO is a really outstanding Distro effort. It can't be said too many times so
"Fine Job VastOne!"   8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 11, 2014, 03:50:51 PM
@sqlpython..  Thank you!

Seems we are all waiting now for the decision ... seems it has been quiet on all fronts, I have not seen or heard anything new
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: Digit on January 12, 2014, 12:53:25 PM
may seem rather off-topic for us, but a few snippets in the conversation caught my eye and made me think of here.  ^_^

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1u2lyr/gnu_hurd_is_up_to_344k_lines_of_code/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1u2lyr/gnu_hurd_is_up_to_344k_lines_of_code/)

... i'd quote specific parts, but then i'd feel inclined to include responses that'd gradually drift and trail off, way off, into far away tangents.


[edit]
ah, no, yeah, there's a bit i'll quote:
Quote
narrow-vision stupidity
hehe.  ;)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on January 18, 2014, 03:04:51 AM

More twists and turns, .........

Debian May Be Leaning Towards Systemd Over Upstart!?
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU3NDc (http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU3NDc)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on January 18, 2014, 04:24:11 AM
The decision should be made fairly quickly now... Always an interesting read... One thread I saw from that was a Spotify techinical spokesperson stated that they were only interested in systemd for their 5000+ debian servers and cloud that run Spotify... Here is that message (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708#3546)

That is quite the endorsement
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on January 22, 2014, 10:25:38 PM

Init wars: Shuttleworth's copyright licensing hangs over debate
http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-sauce/62884-init-wars-shuttleworths-copyright-licensing-hangs-over-debate (http://www.itwire.com/opinion-and-analysis/open-sauce/62884-init-wars-shuttleworths-copyright-licensing-hangs-over-debate)

At this point, it is very clear that systemd will be the default choice for Debian. This, despite the fact that it does not cater to non-Linux systems and one of Debian's recent showpieces has been its kFreeBSD port, "an official Debian GNU distribution using the kernel of FreeBSD instead of the Linux kernel. About ninety percent of the Debian software archive is available for Debian GNU/kFreeBSD"

This is also interesting
init-select
https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2014/01/msg00012.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2014/01/msg00012.html)
Hi :)

The TC init discussion has diverged significantly from Debian's usual
ideals of freedom and meritocracy, so I decided to do something about
it.

So, today I wrote init-select.  It's a small tool that empowers users
to freely and simply choose among all of the available init systems.
It also empowers Debian contributors to devote their energy toward
their favorite init knowing that users can easily swap inits to try
the new features they are working on.

There also seems to be a push on to install plymouth by default as well.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on February 10, 2014, 12:25:53 AM
Systemd is the winner of the vote (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00405.html), and within hours Ian Jackson shows his colors asking for the chair to resign...

Deposing the chairman of the Technical Committee - Are you kidding me Ian Jackson? (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00344.html)

This has been an incredible stupid and careless process which IMO gives Debian a massive black eye

And then this? (https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00359.html) Really really Childish!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on February 10, 2014, 01:12:16 AM
 ::) I just don't know where to look! Embarrassing!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on February 11, 2014, 02:13:53 AM
Debian  welcome to the surreal...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on February 14, 2014, 10:12:15 PM
Ubuntu is moving to systemd, since Debian has decided to;

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316 (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/1316)
 
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on February 14, 2014, 10:17:48 PM
^ that is stunning news..

I expected this but not this fast...

WOW!

Thanks for posting that
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: tanstaafl on February 15, 2014, 03:42:52 PM
I'd really like to thank everyone who participated in this thread, it has been the most rational discussion of the merits of systemd I've read since a couple of really bad ones on the gentoo list a while back, where there are/were many people who are rabidly against systemd.

I must say that this discussion has caused me to rethink my admittedly ignorant opposition, which was based solely on the opinions of others far more knowledgeable on the technical merits than I.

One of the main reasons I've been against systemd is simple: ianap (I am not a programmer, and my shell scripting skills are rudimentary at best, and would probably send most into fits of hysteria or running away screaming), I've seen many comments about how complex systemd is and that you need to be a skilled programmer to even consider using it. Heck, I don't even really understand openrc/udev, but at least I've never run into an unbootable system situation that required me to do any debugging after a system update.

I would really like to see a similar discussion comparing the pros/cons of systemd and openrc now.

Anyway - thanks again to all, now I guess its time to think about getting my hands dirty...

Charles
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on February 15, 2014, 03:51:12 PM
Hi Charles and welcome to VSIDO, glad to have you...

I have a question that may or may not apply... Did you ever worry about anything with sysvinit and your setup?  And if no, why not?  Most likely because it just worked and you did not need to worry

Systemd as an init is pretty much the same... it just works and stays out of the way, not complex at all... and like with sysvinit, I have never had to change anything at all on all of my scripts, build functions, designs, layouts or anything to use systemd

I dropped it in and it works
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: tanstaafl on February 15, 2014, 05:08:03 PM
Hi Charles and welcome to VSIDO, glad to have you...
Thanks, glad to be here...

Quote
I have a question that may or may not apply... Did you ever worry about anything with sysvinit and your setup?  And if no, why not?  Most likely because it just worked and you did not need to worry
Bingo...

Quote
Systemd as an init is pretty much the same... it just works and stays out of the way, not complex at all... and like with sysvinit, I have never had to change anything at all on all of my scripts, build functions, designs, layouts or anything to use systemd

I dropped it in and it works
Yeah, I guess the only real major thing is to wait until all of the packages (I'm still a gentoo user, - been considering  switch to something else, but in no hurry) I need and use are fully supported (unit files). From what I've been reading gentoo is almost there already, and many are already using systemd, but I just don't have the skills (or the time to learn how) to debug these things myself.

Anyway, I feel much better about the eventuality now, thanks in no small part to this thread.

Thanks again, and for the welcome... :)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on August 15, 2014, 01:47:32 AM
To re-open an old topic.......

As some of you may or may not know, I am also a Slackware devotee. Eric Hameleers, one of the Slackware "team" posted this in his blog regarding systemd...an interesting read. Eric is btw a really primo guy who provides many cutting edge packages for the Slackware community. Yes, and I still lub VSIDO  :) :)

http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/on-lkml-an-open-letter-to-the-linux-world/ (http://alien.slackbook.org/blog/on-lkml-an-open-letter-to-the-linux-world/)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on August 16, 2014, 04:21:16 AM
Thanks for the link and subsequent reads zbreaker...  I read through them and it seems to me that there are still quite a few people who seem to just spew hate towards Pottering and that development team... It all seems personal to me and there is never really any substance other than "they are taking away my freedom" without facts.  I get that argument but even the worst developers can and do get jobs done that have benefited all of us.  I am not defending anyone, I just do not get all the hype
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on August 16, 2014, 07:44:38 PM
The argument that systemd is over complicated and controls too many other things does have some merit in relation to the classic *nix tradition of keeping it small and doing one thing well.

The personalities involved do bring some on themselves with their abrasive arrogance and attitude i.e. they cause problems and it is up to everyone else to fix it by changing their software, including the kernel devs.

I don't know Linus personally and even I know that won't fly.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on August 22, 2014, 05:41:19 AM
"Interesting" things going on with the kernel devs and systemd devs:

https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/K7ijdmxJ8PF

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/415

Oops, that is older than I thought  :-[
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on August 22, 2014, 02:33:16 PM
^ Still and all a very interesting read... I am worried if all the crud and hate around systemd is worth it anymore and would seriously consider viable alternatives now
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on August 22, 2014, 02:58:38 PM
Food for thought indeed.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on August 22, 2014, 07:46:33 PM
I like this more adult review and discussion ... (http://lwn.net/Articles/593676/)

So much hyperbole and drama and most of it created by pure hatred and vitriol that it is scary and detrimental to FOSS IMO
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on September 03, 2014, 03:28:46 PM
^ No kidding.

Then there is this (http://boycottsystemd.org/)

link might be a double post; lost track of this thread.

I for one, am really waiting to see what path Slackware takes.

Edit - click on the "No Seriously" link in item 2 of the above link and enjoy the read - priceless.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on September 03, 2014, 03:38:25 PM
As a slacker I can tell you alternative answers are being pursued.

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/systemd-216-a-4175515577/ (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/slackware-14/systemd-216-a-4175515577/)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on September 03, 2014, 05:39:27 PM
Nice thread, thanks.

There is an interesting post in there that Void linux has switched from systemd to runit as the init system.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 03, 2014, 06:22:28 PM
I am going to test converting a build from systemd back to sysVinit and then implement runit and see how it performs

Thanks for that Rat Man
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on September 03, 2014, 08:17:06 PM
I've got a few spare partitions and will be more than glad to test drive  8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 04, 2014, 01:40:51 AM
^ I will most definitely hold you to that offer ...  8)

Once done I will post a link for downloads for anyone wanting to test

I appreciate the offer  ;D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on September 04, 2014, 12:27:13 PM
Interesting read here - http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/choose-your-side-the-linux-divide-248950 (http://www.infoworld.com/d/data-center/choose-your-side-the-linux-divide-248950)

and the comments don't have all the drama.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 04, 2014, 12:57:23 PM
^ Thanks for that PackRat...

I have several issues with that whole article...

1. Where the hell has he been?  Same old tired arguments again and again... I mean, he said NOTHING new

2. if enough established and learned folks disagree with the change, then perhaps it bears further inspection before going to production. Clearly, that hasn't happened with systemd. ... WHAT?  Was that whole conversation that the debian selection committee had a figment of our imaginations?

3.  Is debian to be taken so lightly?  Whether you like them or not, they have been doing this as long as anyone, over 20 years now

4, DAFUQ is he saying that sysVinit is not broke and needs no fix?  This is an old and stupid argument, it is clearly lacking and no longer developed as such

5. Comparing any data or design to 1984, 1994 or 2004 is ridiculous...  Things change, it is a fundamental reason why Linux was created to begin with.  It is why the kernel changes every month or so, it is who we are

I give no shits on any of it any more.  It is like a bunch of children who have never been taught how to resolve differences and only know how to argue or fight.  I see the same things on most forums and comments I read and it scares me how uninformed we are now and still feel obligated to demand OUR insights are THE ONLY WAY...

I blame it all on the cowardice of anonymity... 

Lets get in a room and discuss it and resolve it, not hope it breaks and sit back and say.. 'na na na na na, I told you it was shit and was going to break' as we stroke our fucking neckbeards and yell at our mothers to turn down her fucking soap operas so we can design something the world will cherish

I'll throw away my pedestal now
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 04, 2014, 10:34:40 PM
FWIW. Clearly have some catching up to do.  Imagine my surprise after all this time to see that this discussion is still alive, amazing Thailand Debian as they say.  I have been away on other projects and will get up to speed before putting my foot into it.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on September 04, 2014, 11:30:14 PM
My impression is that systemd would get a lot further if they told Kay S. to take a hike. He seems to have made a vocation of rubbing people the wrong way.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on September 05, 2014, 01:35:15 AM
I too can not believe we are still having this discussion.  Most major distro's have adopted systemd and there hasn't been an end-of-the-world crisis because of it.  I'm just going to post here how I, as a daily, longtime Linux user regard the issue.  Over 2 years with VSIDO.  A year of VSIDO (appx) using systemd.  VastOne and I, and maybe one other fella gave it a serious run before settling on it.  It wasn't a split second decision on VastOne's part, and I don't believe it has been a split second decision coming from any of the other 'major' distro's.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but, you have Arch, OpenSUSE, Fedora/Redhat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc all deciding to use systemd.

Old guard Unix versus new guard Linux?  Huh?  If something makes my system work better, tbh, I don't care about the politics or the "philosophy" (more rant on that below!) of "why it is better".  It is a better solution than sysVinit, and we all know it whether we want to admit it is so, or not.  That said, sparking heated discussion isn't the "only" thing systemd does well.

Quote
Fundamental changes in the structure of most Linux distributions should not be met with such fervent opposition. It indicates that no matter how reasonable a change may seem, if enough established and learned folks disagree with the change, then perhaps it bears further inspection before going to production. Clearly, that hasn't happened with systemd.

HUH?  For the last year and a half, AT LEAST, systemd has borne "further inspection".  Further inspection by some of the best minds in the Linux community.

Holding Linux up in the air, and claiming "hey this isn't following the Unix philosophy" is to me, stupid.  It ain't Unix, it's Linux.  I don't run a single program from 1998 that depends on anything from Unix.  Do any of you?

No, sysVinit was not broken, but as technology evolves, so does the software that is written that drives it.  sysVinit while not broken, definitely had used up it's lifespan and then some.  I'm not a developer.  I'm not a programmer.  I can barely work my way through a lua script.  With the growth of Linux in the last 10 years, (if I'm not mistaken Linux is the fastest growing OS in the world today) it only makes sense to keep making it better.  sysVinit was at the end of it's practicality and usability while trying to keep up with newer, faster and ever more evolving technology.  In one fell swoop, systemd came charging in.  And you know what?  It works.  It works really well.  It is going to work for a long time to come.  Does anyone really believe that sysVinit was going to be around in 2024?  Gimme a break.

The very word 'philosophy' when ascribed to Linux, Unix, or anything else 'technology' related is asinine.  "Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language."  (definition grabbed from Google) Understand that?  In other words, an ever evolving view of how something is, was, or comes to be.  Or, better yet, and even simpler way to put it;  Oh f*^k!  I changed my mind!

Linus Torvalds created the Linux Kernel.  He didn't create a "UNIX KERNEL".  This silly argument of trying to pretend that if you never used Unix, you have no business doing any kind of dev work for Linux is utter stupidity IMO.  This is not an argument about systemd anymore.  It is an argument about who has the biggest EGO.
 
systemd has been implemented on an "official" basis for less than 6 mos now.  (I'm speaking of Debian making that decision.  Other big name distro's already had)  Not every distro is using it.  Not every distro will use it.  The fact that there is still an argument going on over systemd is an overwhelming case AGAINST Linux altogether.  It is doing nothing other than stir unease in someone new to Linux or considering Linux.  This is not a "distro war", or Linux trying to replace Unix.  (or Windows and Mac for that matter) It is a case of a LOT of dev's creating a new init system, and because of ego's, attitude, and prejudice, stamping their foot and saying something like "fine, I'm taking my toys and going home".  Get the F*^K home already! (Kay)

In the end, it comes down to numbers.  Plain and simple.  Do the math.  What system/program works/lasts the longest?  The one with the most dev's/maintainers behind it.  Guess which init system has the most dev's/maintainers working on it daily.  It ain't Upstart, OpenRC, runit, Epoch, initng, eINIT, etc etc etc...  It is, hands down, systemd.

It is time for the old neckbeards to buy a razor and come out of the cave.  There is a better world out here!

Quote from: VastOne
I blame it all on the cowardice of anonymity...

Priceless ^^

And now, I'll hand VastOne's pedestal back to him...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on September 05, 2014, 01:36:40 AM
Holy crap!  That should count for like 7 posts!  Sorry, didn't mean to bloviate and end up writing a novel...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on September 05, 2014, 01:48:11 AM
Well put, Jedi, quite well put!


Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on September 05, 2014, 02:54:01 AM
As stated at the beginning of my post, I wrote that from the perspective of an end-user running Linux on a modern laptop.  Perhaps as a sys-admin, you know, the guy running the 'server-farms' or the company network, systemd might be being harangued and argued about from a security standpoint.  Or because it runs on PID1.  For every single argument about systemd and the "server environment", there is an equal and just as valid explanation.  This is not the 'dumbing down' of Linux, or trying to turn Linux into Windows.  This is moving forward, and allowing Linux to mature into a viable and real alternative to Unix.  (or any other OS, server or otherwise)  I don't think anyone is seeing it from that perspective.  Unix has been around almost 50 years, and Linux almost 30.  This is all about choice, and being able to rely on an already reliable framework.  In the end, one of the other init systems I mention in the post above may become the "Big Dog on The Porch".  Until then, the arguing that is going on in the community is alienating a lot of folks who just might have chosen Linux, but then saw all of the distasteful discourse happening as a result of systemd.  You all do know, you CAN choose whichever init system you want.  systemd is not a vast chasm that cannot ever be traversed.  If you don't like it, then don't use it.  Isn't that why we all use Linux in the first place?  Unbelievable...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 05, 2014, 03:02:23 AM
And now a word from our contrarian sponsor.  No offense to anyone intended... this is a discussion.

My impression is that systemd would get a lot further if they told Kay S. to take a hike. He seems to have made a vocation of rubbing people the wrong way.

Yes, definitely rubs people the wrong way but that is shadows and fog.  The issues most central to the discussions core are the (for lack of a better way to put it) "black box" design approach used in putting together systemd.  The developers feel that there are some things that should be out of users control and even their view.

There are few people on this site that I respect and enjoy more than Jedi and it is with some trepidation that I mention the following. In most things he says here my esteemed friend is correct, to the average user and even the power user systemd is great, it just works and indeed it works well. The problem lies deeper, it rests on that fact that systemd closes doors for the developers and coders. To use an analogy it is like having a house where every night the food just comes to your table. It's good and it's just there. Great for most people but if you want to go in the kitchen the door is locked and there is someone saying "you don't need to go in there, tell me what you want and it will just be there". Some of us want to go in that room, some of us want sorbet made with a spoon and not a blender, etc. or something we may want some day that today we don't even realize. We want to be able to have the option of going into that room and painting it green or whatever. I personally don't like someone telling me I can't look in the kitchen in my house, it's why I came to Linux in the first place.  Now, I would say that is a philosophical difference, my friend tells me that is stupid and he is probably right.  I am sure he is right, I am stupid and antiquarian and pedantic, etc. but I yam what I yam.

I have been down this road before, someone telling me "no, you just don't get it, it's safer for the majority of users to not see this stuff.  We can't really explain what we have done but you don't need to make alterations to how certain calls are made and the information and tools we give you are all you need".  This is a very slippery slope, first it's system calls and then it is I/O interfaces and then ... I have seen this movie before and so have many others who are objecting to what is included in systemd and what is available to developers for interfaces and calls.  As The Who once said "the new boss is the old boss, don't get fooled again".

I have no choice but to accept systemd at least in the interim but I am pretty sure that as I get back to doing things on a box again there will be a time where I run up against the locked door to the kitchen I am going to get pretty po'd. I also remain pretty sure that greater minds than mine are looking at this as well. It might be that I personally go back to sysv or some alternative.  It would not be the first time, after all  I still use a cli mail system, dmenu instead of a gui launcher, fluxbox instead of gnome etc. etc.  Because I have more control and the ability to do goofy things with it should I want to.  There are plenty of people who have told me this or that is "better" and I don't really need to see all that stuff that is going on behind the curtain.

I too can not believe we are still having this discussion.  Most major distro's have adopted systemd and there hasn't been an end-of-the-world crisis because of it.  I'm just going to post here how I, as a daily, longtime Linux user regard the issue.  Over 2 years with VSIDO.  A year of VSIDO (appx) using systemd.  VastOne and I, and maybe one other fella gave it a serious run before settling on it.  It wasn't a split second decision on VastOne's part, and I don't believe it has been a split second decision coming from any of the other 'major' distro's.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but, you have Arch, OpenSUSE, Fedora/Redhat, Debian, Ubuntu, etc all deciding to use systemd.

Not a very compelling argument for me.  Everyone of those distro's have lots of crap in them.  I don't want unity for example or rpm or ...


HUH?  For the last year and a half, AT LEAST, systemd has borne "further inspection".  Further inspection by some of the best minds in the Linux community.

Holding Linux up in the air, and claiming "hey this isn't following the Unix philosophy" is to me, stupid.  It ain't Unix, it's Linux.  I don't run a single program from 1998 that depends on anything from Unix.  Do any of you?

Firstly, if it had borne further inspection this discussion would be over. It's not and that should be a signal that there is something deeper here.

Secondly, I have no idea but I would bet bash is older than that and probably pine and ... probably many things I use but I don't use them because they are old.  I use them because they work, fit my needs and allow me the control that I want to do creative things with them.  I can use them to create new things and often do.

No, sysVinit was not broken, but as technology evolves, so does the software that is written that drives it.  sysVinit while not broken, definitely had used up it's lifespan and then some.  I'm not a developer.  I'm not a programmer.  I can barely work my way through a lua script.  With the growth of Linux in the last 10 years, (if I'm not mistaken Linux is the fastest growing OS in the world today) it only makes sense to keep making it better.  sysVinit was at the end of it's practicality and usability while trying to keep up with newer, faster and ever more evolving technology.  In one fell swoop, systemd came charging in.  And you know what?  It works.  It works really well.  It is going to work for a long time to come.  Does anyone really believe that sysVinit was going to be around in 2024?  Gimme a break.

I am not aware of anything in sysVinit being broken either while I am aware of it's limitations and the work-arounds becoming harder and harder I am not aware of any urgent compelling reason that it could not continue to be used efficiently and without the user knowing much different. I would guess it might well be around in 2024 in some form or other. 

The very word 'philosophy' when ascribed to Linux, Unix, or anything else 'technology' related is asinine.  "Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language."  (definition grabbed from Google) Understand that?  In other words, an ever evolving view of how something is, was, or comes to be.  Or, better yet, and even simpler way to put it;  Oh f*^k!  I changed my mind!

asinine that was the word I was looking for above :) I would point out "connected with reality, existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind and language" and say that your definition of philosophy might be the same but our definitions of reality, existence, reason might be different and that we for sure have different values, knowledge and minds.

Linus Torvalds created the Linux Kernel.  He didn't create a "UNIX KERNEL".  This silly argument of trying to pretend that if you never used Unix, you have no business doing any kind of dev work for Linux is utter stupidity IMO.  This is not an argument about systemd anymore.  It is an argument about who has the biggest EGO.

Oh come now this is semantics at best and a conceptual deceit that is beneath you sir. What he called the kernel was not the point, where he got the kernel is and he got it from Unix.  Linus has always been very upfront about stating the importance of maintaining that "asinine" Unix philosophy and he is probably not someone you want to cite in defense of either systemd or Kay. LOL.
 
systemd has been implemented on an "official" basis for less than 6 mos now.  (I'm speaking of Debian making that decision.  Other big name distro's already had)  Not every distro is using it.  Not every distro will use it.  The fact that there is still an argument going on over systemd is an overwhelming case AGAINST Linux altogether.  It is doing nothing other than stir unease in someone new to Linux or considering Linux.  This is not a "distro war", or Linux trying to replace Unix.  (or Windows and Mac for that matter) It is a case of a LOT of dev's creating a new init system, and because of ego's, attitude, and prejudice, stamping their foot and saying something like "fine, I'm taking my toys and going home".  Get the F*^K home already! (Kay)

Could not disagree with this blurb any more.  I think this discussion is a fine testament to the strength of the Linux community.  I am one of those looney's who think discussion and discourse are healthy and that debate furthers knowledge and understanding.  I have no dog in this fight other than some pet projects that won't be moving forward. Yes I understand I have a choice etc. but if I am ripping Debian apart again to get what I want then that is a bit of a painful choice.  That again is the problem here there are parts to systemd that are outside of the core.

Remember when Vsido started part of it was to take the core of Debian and build up from it what you wanted but Debian was at the core.  Now you are making it so that the core of Debian is more than just that core, it means you have to take this and that and the other thing.  This is an important difference to some of us.

I think it is fine for Kay to say "Get the F*^K home already!"  but it's the equivalent of someone burning your house down and saying here take this fine house that I built for you and if you don't like it go the F" home.  But then you have no home anymore because the b3i#ard burnt your house down.  I am not saying I am taking my toys and going home but there are certain projects that I participated in that I am not going to redevelop to work with what I perceive is a very limited set of tools, it violates the intent and integrity of what I was doing and frankly my reason for doing it.  What I did is open and free for all to do as they wish there are no limitations can Kay say the same?

In the end, it comes down to numbers.  Plain and simple.  Do the math.  What system/program works/lasts the longest?  The one with the most dev's/maintainers behind it.  Guess which init system has the most dev's/maintainers working on it daily.  It ain't Upstart, or OpenRC etc etc etc...  It is, hands down, systemd.

Oh my, the get on the bandwagon, everybody is doing it argument.  Really Jed?  Really?  You were apparently at your Germans bombing Pearl Harbor section of your rant.  :D Um, I can think of very few worthwhile projects that were adopted by the masses immediately.  Easier does not mean better, I won't bore any of you who might take the time to read this with the examples.  Just take a few minutes and consider things that were the end all be all, everybody was developing for ...

...

...

...

and we are back.  We would all be surfing with Netscape right now for example.


It is time for the old neckbeards to buy a razor and come out of the cave.  There is a better world out here!

Quote from: VastOne
I blame it all on the cowardice of anonymity...

Priceless ^^

And now, I'll hand VastOne's pedestal back to him...

Hmm.  I am a double edge guy myself.  Can't grow a beard to save my life.  Jedi I hope you take this with the respect that is intended (with a little playfulness) and you consider that there might be some other ways to see  this.  Again, I will use systemd for the interim (mainly because I have little time or inclination to do differently) but I am extremely wary of this path and will be watching closely.  If things turn as I fear or if something I need gets screwed up over it I reserve the right to change my mind (philosophically of course)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on September 05, 2014, 03:23:42 AM
OMG! It's back again!

All the forums I frequent lately are all over this, again!

Surely it's passed it's "use by date" and should be nuked........


I need a beer!  8)

 ;D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on September 05, 2014, 04:00:21 AM
Quote from: statmonkey
Hmm.  I am a double edge guy myself.  Can't grow a beard to save my life.  Jedi I hope you take this with the respect that is intended (with a little playfulness) and you consider that there might be some other ways to see  this.

No offense taken at all sir!  I also am unable to grow a beard.  (well except on my neck)

My knowledge of systemd could be put in a thimble!  (or something even smaller)  I wrote all of that from the point of view of an end-user, and as I mentioned, I'm no coder/programmer by ANY definition of the word.  Your points are all valid and very well explained!

Philosophically speaking...   bwahahahahaha

I do not know Linus, but your are correct, he got the Kernel from Unix and it was shortsighted of me to say otherwise.  Bash, pine, and many others...  wow was I not thinking at all?  (though I have never used pine to check my mail!)  No I wasn't!  I also was not considering the impact systemd has had on programmers.  I was narrow minded in not considering that.  In that regard, indeed, let us continue to have a discourse about the init system.

My rant (that is what it was/is) was mostly an off the cuff reaction to the discussion continuing to impact the implementation of Linux on any level to a new user.  I definitely deserve a spanking for some of my remarks!  (philosophically speaking of course)  You're a very valued member of our VSIDO community and I certainly hope you would never think I would consider you in any way stupid, antiquarian, pedantic, etc.  I definitely do not!

My point when it comes to the numbers, is not that everyone should hop aboard, but that it is simply the init system that is currently receiving the most attention.  Of course you are right, more is never necessarily representative of better!  As to Kay, I have read several of the "dressing downs" he has received from Mr. Torvalds, and my intent was that he (Kay) should "go home".  My concept of him creating the Linux Kernel, was to put a free OS out there...

And yes, I had firmly reached the German conclusion!  :)

I definitely will cede the point that systemd is not the end all, be all solution for Linux.  Hopefully I clarified that in the follow up post.  Linux IS all about choice.

Very good post statmonkey, and thanks for putting me back on the straight and narrow!  (philosophically speaking!)

 



Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 05, 2014, 04:16:57 AM
Wow.. welcome back statmonkey and with a muthafeckin BANG!  Nice!

Here I sit on a fence.. I think the safest thing to do is go back to sysVinit for VSIDO, as I do not see anyone getting in that room for solutions I long for

I looked into runit and if I have it right, there would need to be a boatload of scripts created or used to start all of the services needed

So far in my testing I have removed systemd and gone back to sysVinit with the only issues being not able to reboot or shut down from the commands, but that would be an easy fix

Anyone care to look at runit and see how much work there maybe in getting these service scripts in order?  It sounds like a tall leap to me and one I am not quite ready to jump into.. perhaps a cold weather thing I could do

I love this thread and discussions... we have had two users clash in the most civil way I have seen regarding systemd,  you jedi and statmonkey deserve a slap on the back and a 'atta boy',  kennit?

Well done mates, well done
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 05, 2014, 10:26:29 PM
I definitely will cede the point that systemd is not the end all, be all solution for Linux.  Hopefully I clarified that in the follow up post.  Linux IS all about choice.

What a quick reminder of why I love this forum.  The fact that dialogue can be exchanged without flames and ego.

It is about choice, control, options and more.  I think I understand where you were/are coming from very well and your post is very gracious.  I am not trying to steer anyone anywhere, what I am trying to present are the reasons that I personally have concerns about systemd and what it means to swallow it whole hog.  If it is acceptable to most people (probably will be) they should understand the medicine they are getting with their spoonful of sugar.  If  knowing all it is acceptable to you that is one thing but buying in under false pretenses and FUD is another.  This is one of the most FUD-filled topics I have ever seen BTW.


...

I looked into runit and if I have it right, there would need to be a boatload of scripts created or used to start all of the services needed

So far in my testing I have removed systemd and gone back to sysVinit with the only issues being not able to reboot or shut down from the commands, but that would be an easy fix

Anyone care to look at runit and see how much work there maybe in getting these service scripts in order?  It sounds like a tall leap to me and one I am not quite ready to jump into.. perhaps a cold weather thing I could do

I love this thread and discussions... we have had two users clash in the most civil way I have seen regarding systemd,  you jedi and statmonkey deserve a slap on the back and a 'atta boy',  kennit?

Well done mates, well done

I will bite and see what runit looks like.  I started playing with it at one time and then got all caught up in Phone/Pebble/AndroidGear stuff and lost track of it.  I am belaying my Moto360 urges just to try and focus on this for now.  That's not easy :)

It's also been a while since I spoke with any of the non-systemd/upstart folks and wonder what they are up to.  I will send out some feelers.

This is not meant as self-deprecating but just a fact that I think anyone who has taken the time to read these forums knows.  All credit/back slaps got to Jedi.  As always he has shown what a gracious and honorable individual he is in his response.  Besides his initial rant kind of put a hop in my step with some of his assertions  8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on September 05, 2014, 10:38:57 PM
Fantastic discussion people.

Little did I know the gate I was opening when I revived the thread on 8/15/14. And I'm floored by the intelligent sharing of informed viewpoints 8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 05, 2014, 10:43:59 PM
^ Agreed...

What I appreciate most from this small band of ka-tet that we are, is that we are more (much more) than a group with a half of brain.. We seem to fully utilize all that we are capable of, which just simply means we think and rethink when necessary

I am damned glad to be a part of it
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 06, 2014, 12:53:04 AM
And now a word from our contrarian sponsor.  No offense to anyone intended... this is a discussion.

..and then proceeds to be the ultimate gentleman and presents a perfectly civil response.  :P
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 06, 2014, 02:41:32 AM
^ No kidding.

Then there is this (http://boycottsystemd.org/)

link might be a double post; lost track of this thread.

I for one, am really waiting to see what path Slackware takes.

Edit - click on the "No Seriously" link in item 2 of the above link and enjoy the read - priceless.

Oh I love that, I mean really ... "Yupp, journal corruptions result in rotation, and when reading we try to make the best of it. they are nothing we really need to fix hence."

So journal corruption is normal.  Think about that.  You have an issue, you need to see what went wrong and then ... oh sorry that just happened to be a journal that got corrupted so you are on your own.  Now multiply that over hundreds of programs and machines writing to the journals, etc.  DISASTER and a realistic disaster as well.

If it ain't fixed then break it as a design philosophy?  Oh, sorry Jedi there's that word again.

PackRat that original link you provided makes some very valid points.  I am slowly working to catch up with all the info in here.  Thanks for posting this.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on September 06, 2014, 07:40:54 AM
I think this is a must read thread for everyone in the pursuit of knowledge pertaining to systemd and it's individual impact on each and every Linux user concerned with the future of our Linux.  I am posting the following quote in the hopes that you will read them in sequential order.  Your understanding will be much increased, and that philosophy I had the temerity to disdain will quickly become quite meaningful to ALL Linux users who care about the direction Linux takes.  Regardless of distro, desktop or server!

Then there is this (http://boycottsystemd.org/)

Edit - click on the "No Seriously" link in item 2 of the above link and enjoy the read - priceless.

Oh man, I love that, I mean really ...
Quote from: Lennart Poettering
"Yupp, journal corruptions result in rotation, and when reading we try to make the best of it. they are nothing we really need to fix hence."
Quote from: statmonkey
So journal corruption is normal.  Think about that.  You have an issue, you need to see what went wrong and then ... oh sorry that just happened to be a journal that got corrupted so you are on your own.  Now multiply that over hundreds of programs and machines writing to the journals, etc.  DISASTER and a realistic disaster as well.
If it ain't fixed then break it as a design philosophy?  Oh, sorry Jedi there's that word again.
;D
I have been aware of systemd in some form or fashion for about a year and a half.  VastOne can correct me here, but I believe we decided over the course of last December and through to January, to implement it into VSIDO as the default.  My input to VastOne was mainly the result in relying on the partisan bickering back and forth between the Upstart vs systemd crowd in the Debian Mailing lists.

Steve Langasek, Russ Allbery, Bdale Garbee, Ian Jackson, and yes, I know I'm missing several someones, I followed closely their arguments via the Debian ML's.  However, following for months the arguments for and against systemd vs Upstart, I think our community forgot the most basic precept.  "Keep it simple stupid"...

There were more (way more) init systems being developed that received absolutely no marketing whatsoever, resulting in them not ever even being considered.  Init systems that had been being worked on for years.  For Upstart, the very first fundamental opposition came with it's inclusion of the ridiculous cursed CLA.  For the vast, vast majority in the know, this immediately disqualified Upstart, no matter how well (or bad) it worked.  Other init systems being developed at the time, were 1) not marketed well, if at all, 2) not fully functional or at the very least still needing a lot of work to be seriously considered as an alternative to sysVinit not to mention funding, and 3) the serious FUD campaign that was/is still being waged about a new init system.

My personal belief is that the moment systemd swallowed udev in it's entirety should have been the "writing on the wall" that alerted everyone as to what was coming.  This is only my opinion.

Another bad taste occurred for me when I understood Poettering was the lead dev, (or if not, thought himself to be) as I had memories of Pulse-Audio and all of its awful infighting and bickering resulting in his either walking away from the project, or being asked to.  Arrogance, and an unwillingness to listen to others ideas, be they right or wrong, is a serious indicator of an individuals regard for his fellow developers.  Poettering, if he has any, (regard that is) keeps it well hidden.  A prime example is listed in the above links concerning the journal core dump corruption, and his refusal to even acknowledge a need to even look at it.  A very disconcerting insight into how he treasures his own intellect.

But, then the TC at Debian began with the tirades against one another and how quickly the Upstart team was to totally alienate themselves from the rest.  Understandably, they had been working on an important and consequential technology their distro would quite possibly change the landscape of Linux with.  Ubuntu and Canonical doomed themselves from day 1 as I ascribed above.  CLA, no way.  No matter how well they could have ended up making Upstart, that killed it at birth.  Upstart = stillborn.  Sad.

I climbed aboard with systemd (I am annoyed at myself here, as I had only studied on systemd vs Upstart) due to the ease of implementation on the desktop and the "seemingly" faster boot speeds.  There were other reasons as well.  I tended to try to see the good in systemd simply because they were running such a great marketing campaign in the background the whole time, in order to see it implemented.  I also wanted the argument to go away, as I thought it detrimental to anyone considering Linux, but also seeing the bickering and sometimes vitriolic hatred that emanated from the ML's.  This arguing was being quoted and misquoted on so many, many Linux sites.  (mine is guilty as charged in that regard as well)  It was not a pretty time, and it is getting some more attention even now.

I will be 'pirouetting', a complete 180, on my opinion as to systemd here, and at jedsdesk.com as well.  This comes from a more substantive study of systemd.  Not because someone told me to change my mind.  I read, studied, and came to my own conclusions.  (I write that as I don't want statmonkey to be perceived as an evangelist for sending systemd to Linux hell! philosophically speaking of course!)  His posts, along with PackRat's, and several other respected members of the Linux blogosphere have influenced this decision.

The consequences of systemd being unilaterally, across the board, accepted as the status-quo for init systems in Linux may not be completely disastrous, but I believe that it could be!  The PID1 situation is intolerable.  That the init system alone could hose a system is unacceptable.  The "Keep it Simple Stupid" factor is another "in your face" mud pie that is hard to swallow.  systemd's total disregard of it.  From the programmers point of view, some are talking of just walking away from some really great projects due to dependencies issues with systemd.  (I have to wonder if IG made some of his decisions based on trying to maintain compatibility with systemd) It has become truly monolithic, and IMO made itself almost equally important to Linux as the Kernel.  I will not tolerate a reboot after every update.  A trivial thing for some, but of vast importance to me.  Another, and equally appalling ethos from the systemd team, their open disregard for non-Linux software and subsequent systemd incompatibility with all non-Linux systems. This is an isolationist policy that essentially binds the Linux ecosystem into its own cage, and serves as an obstacle to software portability. (a direct quote from the boycott systemd site) This is a total shock and is in no way acceptable.

I have been a tester for VSIDO since Sept of 2012.  It is the only OS I use.  Yes I distro hop occasionally to witness the bloat of the others, and remind me why I have been with VSIDO since the beginning.  My main goto metal is a beast of a machine.  A laptop that is latest and greatest.  I hope to continue to be an official tester for VSIDO long into the future.  As one of two of VastOne's official testers for his distro, I believe I made an error of judgement in recommending systemd during our testing phase of systemd.  To all the users of VSIDO my apologies.  To VastOne, the biggest apology of all.

While systemd does work as an init system, it also becomes a monster once it is utilized, as it goes on to handle power management, device management, mount points, cron, disk encryption, socket API/inetd, syslog, network configuration, login/session management, readahead, GPT partition discovery, container registration, hostname/locale/time management1, among other things and, I believe, severely threatens the security of an individuals personal PC.  Imagine the impact on a server running your business!  From a sys-admins pov, the vast amount of things taken over by systemd is an appalling nightmare.  I think from the LAN/WAN perspective, you'd be crazy to implement it.  That Debian, in the end, made the decision they did, is to me now, entirely at odds with everything they've accomplished in their 20 years of (IMO) total Linux desktop domination.

I have only included the references below as you'll see due to the fact that the site I reference in turn references other very important and informative information concerning this daunting caricature of an init system.  statmonkey is right in that it totally disregards the "Linux Philosophy", and not only that, pretty much spits in the face of the "keep it simple stupid" mantra that has been the core of Linux from the beginning.

To statmonkey, a big thanks for making me do some actual footwork rather than jumping on the proverbial bandwagon as I had done.  Consider me "off the wagon"!


References
1: http://boycottsystemd.org/ (http://boycottsystemd.org/)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 06, 2014, 05:40:33 PM
Fine comments Jedi and appreciate your candor as always.

The simple response is ...

   systemd vs upstart was no battle.  For all the reasons Jedi mentions upstart could not even be considered and I think a lot of people got caught up in the noise and fud of the craziness that Debian would even discuss it.

   I am sure there will be lots of interesting additions to this thread and look forward to more debate but my purpose here has been served.  If you understand what systemd is really giving you, what it means and are comfy with that great but I just want to be sure everyone gets what that all means.

I apologize for my lack of diplomacy but it seems we have identified and agreed there is a problem, what is needed are alternatives and a solution.  I have started a thread on runit where I hope we can gather ideas, comments, links etc. I am not in the slightest endorsing runit, it is a place to start.  I have had it recommended to me.  I would hope that if there are other alts that people like or suggestions I would love to hear them.  I don't want to be presumptuous regarding any choices or any input I might have I am just looking at it and will post my thoughts, the more the merrier.

I hope that people here attack finding an alternative with the same passion they went after systemd and upstart  :D
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 06, 2014, 06:48:45 PM
Nice waffles jedi!   :D

You never misled me, I was really following a simple thought that if it was good enough for debian it was good enough for VSIDO

I began my own waffling around the time this thread rekindled on 8-15 and saw the vitriol was even worse than before.  I still think a lot of this is smoke and mirrors and utter bullshit, but I do recognize the need for a change and will do all I can to make it happen

I am seriously thinking of a version 4 release of VSIDO with the 3.16 (from experimental if I have to) kernel and runit when all of this done
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 27, 2014, 04:58:11 AM
I am just going to quote the first line of this and leave it to you all to read the tutorial...

Like it or not, systemd is here to stay, so we might as well know what to do with it

Understanding and Using Systemd (http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/788613-understanding-and-using-systemd)

It is not meant to raise the ire of anyone any higher but to educate...
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on September 27, 2014, 06:49:56 AM
The following is shamelessly stolen from distrowatch.com, not my own:

31 • Just an init system (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-25 03:55:51 GMT from United States)
If systemd was "just an init system" many users could learn to accept it.
Problem is, with every new release it takes over more functions.
As stated last week, a recent blog rambles about plans to take over package
management for all distros. Guess that means no more *.deb or *.rpm pkgs.
Just *.systemd packages.

I relate it to finding a small red rash on the back of your hand.
It is minor, doesn't really hurt, so you kind of ignore it.
Then you discover the rash has covered your entire arm. Better do something about this.
The next morning you wake up and it has cover both arms and now shoulders.
Left unchecked it will take over your entire body.
Just like systemd is taking over our favorite operating systems.

45 • Some quotes about systemd (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-26 04:07:08 GMT from United States)
Poettering:
"it unifies system objects and their dependencies"
"One goal of systemd is to unify the dispersed Linux landscape"
"trying to gently push everybody towards the same set of basic configuration"
"we’d like to unify the most boring bits where there’s really no point at all in being different"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd:)
"While systemd has succeeded in its original goals, it's not stopping there".....
"systemd wants to control most, if not all, of the fundamental functional aspects of a Linux system"

So, continuing my analogy from post #31.
You find the simple rash has now covered your head, all your head and facial hair has fallen out.
Good thing is now you don't have to shave, or wash, cut, and comb your hair !
Now you discover most of the people around you all look like you do.

How do like your new system created by systemd ? (er I mean a simple rash)
Such a shame you cannot control it.

Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 27, 2014, 04:19:43 PM
[sigh] As always PackRat comes in for the win!  Good comments and just to be verbose and flog a dead horse ...

I am just going to quote the first line of this and leave it to you all to read the tutorial...

Like it or not, systemd is here to stay, so we might as well know what to do with it

Understanding and Using Systemd (http://www.linux.com/learn/tutorials/788613-understanding-and-using-systemd)

It is not meant to raise the ire of anyone any higher but to educate...

Great or not so great minds work alike.  I was going to quote the same line and yes, sadly it is the only thing in that post worth reading.  I am still looking for something on systemd that is recent enough and detailed enough to give me a better understanding.  Since the initial wave of posts and frankly my initial playing with it, it has changed a great deal.


45 • Some quotes about systemd (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-26 04:07:08 GMT from United States)
Poettering:
"it unifies system objects and their dependencies"
"One goal of systemd is to unify the dispersed Linux landscape"
"trying to gently push everybody towards the same set of basic configuration"
"we’d like to unify the most boring bits where there’s really no point at all in being different"


This is what I am talking about when I suggest that systemd has something to do with the structural/configuration changes of things like lightdm.  I do think that an effort is going to be made to force developers/coders/etc to conform to a set of rules and if they don't conform their crap just won't work. 

Call it a line in the sand, call it progress, call it whatever.  Look these are not random changes, I think I get it.  I know my frustrations with certain maintainers and dev's (I only wish one of them could read so they would know I was talking about them) who when they build a package decide that they would like the user config files in /opt and not in /usr/share/ or even completely outside the /usr file structure.  How many times have you had to waste an hour or two looking for where a package could be adjusted/config'd/started from (dropbox anyone?). 

The problem is that in the open source community there are a great many brilliant people, they all have ideas of what the best practices are and because there are no rules they all use their own rules and fervently believe that their rules should be THE rules.  This is of course chaos.  But with android and it's SDK the google gnomes have shown that you can still be open source and have a set of rules and people will work within those and it will be more orderly and less chaotic.  Yes, yes I know we have long had our cake and been able to eat it too but I believe that some degree of order will make Linux more not less usable.  Regardless, arguments for and against are moot this is happening. Don't shoot me I am just saying what I see, not what I agree with.  Systemd is going to be used to do away with the "Ministry of Silly Walks" and random attacks by guys with banana's.  I think we are seeing the first shots across the bow.  Systemd is just not going to "see" the configuration files of your app unless it is sitting somewhere in a defined range of locations and conforms to certain rules.  It just won't start your service and in the future if you want to be in you are going to have to meet those rules.  But they are not going to be dictatorial enough to tell you that, you can still get your stuff to work, it will still install it just will loose (for now) flexibility for the user if you are not playing by the rules.  Once people get on board and they have some momentum I think they will lay the rules out clearly and with finality.  Politically they have just pissed too many people off and they are treading lightly (well sort of :)

That is my theory anyway.

As PackRat says it could lead to a lot of tail chasing but for me I really want to understand systemd and that is the direction I am headed because like it or not it is here.

But it's a lovely day, there are killer races at Belmont all day long and I think I'll let the dust settle, relax and enjoy a super Saturday.  Especially after having this brain fart out of the way.  If things settle down a little more in the Debian world while I am at it so much the better.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 27, 2014, 04:34:33 PM
^ ... and then there is this reality that puts everything in perspective IMO

Am I going to die? (http://[url=http://www.ted.com/talks/matthew_o_reilly_am_i_dying_the_honest_answer?utm_source=newsletter_weekly_2014-09-27&utm_campaign=newsletter_weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_content=talk_of_the_week_image[/url)

Am I being fair?  Of course not... but like statmonkey's need for a calm day and great races, I have been thinking a lot lately about the 3 patterns of inner peace and acceptance...

A need for forgiveness...
A need to be remembered...
A need to know if my life has had meaning...

Not fair at all... BUT... in reality systemd init systems really are not all that important

Watch the video anyway ... it has a powerful message

Have a great day at the races statmonkey!

PackRat... catch that lunker!

Jedi ... go climb a mountain!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 27, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
@statmonkey...

I am glad you mentioned Google in your post and thoughts... this whole issue with init systems (which IS what this is, not just a systemd issue) and upheaval reminds me exactly of that band of users who believe Google is SATAN and should never be used or ever trusted..  BTW, this is Google's 16th birthday

Anyone has that right to that opinion.. just do not be angry at me for not sharing it. 

I like Google and use it. When someone has a better solution, I will use it.  When there is a better solution in the init world than sytemd, I will use it
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on September 27, 2014, 05:52:10 PM
A big part of the problem with systemd is the devs are from the same place (company) as the Gnome3 devs.
The Gnome3 devs work very hard to make it impossible to make any change to Gnome3, YOU WILL USE IT THEIR WAY OR NOT AT ALL.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: siralucardt on September 29, 2014, 07:42:19 PM
So many interesting dicussions about systemd around lately.  I'm just going to leave this here.

http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html (http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html)

And I for one am just a simple user, but one who cares about choice.  Systemd seems to be completely against that.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: superwow on September 29, 2014, 11:02:20 PM
Good find @siralucardt and a good read. Of note is that Pardus OS uses python to initialize (available at https://github.com/Pardus-Linux/mudur (https://github.com/Pardus-Linux/mudur). Interesting OS, was Gentoo now is Debian. The article itself seems to have lots of valid points, but a ton of comments, both on its own site and http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2hkkwb/systemd_the_biggest_fallacies/ (http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2hkkwb/systemd_the_biggest_fallacies/).
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 29, 2014, 11:41:00 PM
I think this article brings us full circle.  Somewhere last year we debated a similar article and if I remember we also went through a Lennart posting where he defended himself against what he called "fraudulent attacks".  Thank you siralucardt for the post.  I want to point out two things that relate to things we are discussing currently.  One directly addresses something I am trying to drive home with the discussions of udevil/polkit/spacefm:

Quote
You used to be able to run logind separately but not anymore, and udev will likely be next to hard-depend on systemd.

This is something to keep in your mind for future app inclusion.  I also don't think the "absorption" of login is completed yet.

The other being:

Quote
The burden of proof is on you to show how many people use systemd because they explicitly want systemd, versus how many people use it because their distro mandated its adoption, or their workplace mandated its adoption, or they need to use something that hard-depends on it.

As I mentioned I have been using runit and surviving pretty well thank you.  I sort of half-arsed it but it works and I am learning.  I don't think there is anything new in those links both the for and against are the same as it ever was.  I remain convinced that systemd is "Ice nine" and I will take the advice of Bokonon and follow in John's footsteps, thumb ready, book of human stupidity at my side and a string for playing Cat's Cradle.  I joke, I joke.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 29, 2014, 11:44:36 PM
I am open to any suggestion..

We went to systemd before the Debian fiasco and at that time it was actually a 'cool thing', no where near the flame war / troll fest it is now.  If runit works and gets it done, then I am all for it

If sysVinit is still doable (it is) we can run back to that.. I have no issue changing but I do not want it forced upon just my shoulders

Make a decision people, I will follow it
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 29, 2014, 11:55:13 PM
No interest in forcing anything on anyone, after all this is just an init system.  Or is it?  I really feel like a turd but I have to go to a meeting right now.  I will use the meeting to pull my thoughts together and respond properly.  My apologies if my comment stirred up another mess.  Not my intention.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 29, 2014, 11:56:23 PM
^ Not at all... I speak as I feel and see it... Nothing to do with you!  Relax mate!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 29, 2014, 11:58:17 PM
Make a decision people translates to:

This community and VSIDO is larger than I am now.  I do not want the burden of it being just my distro. That is not fair to anyone
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on September 30, 2014, 12:00:49 AM
Just thought I would throw this into the mix.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ (http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 30, 2014, 02:11:22 AM
Just thought I would throw this into the mix.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ (http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/)

LOL, that was a very fun read, entertaining even.   Sorry that last response of mine was dashed off and I should have just let it go.  I didn't think you meant it that way at all.  If anyone is meant to make a final decision it's VastOne.   

I probably have been needlessly opaque.   ::) I really believe that at least until the dust settles* that systemd is the way to go.  I remain very concerned about feature creep and all the other stuff we have discussed in here but I also believe that should users have the "sophistication (for lack of a better word)" to care about what their init system is then they probably have the skills to swap out systemd for whatever they want to use.  I installed runit as a test of my theory since there was some down time between VSIDO builds and I am intending to do a complete reinstall soon anyway.  I found it relatively easy and it works fine from what I can see.

So to be clear I vote for staying with systemd until something better shows itself or systemd hangs itself on it's own petard.

Now to be confusing.  I have looked at the alternative distro's that offer something other than systemd.  To my knowledge they are:
slackware
Gentoo
Various minor or never heard of distro's

That's pretty much it.  Might there be an opportunity here to meet a need?  Again, I raise this point for discussion.  Personally I really don't know.

*My Concerns for systemd really focus on the feature creep as I have said.  As systemd pulls more and more things into it's area of control and binds itself more and more to the Gnome/RedHat type paradigm.  What will happen to the alternatives and will the current enthusiasm for alternative desk tops, login managers, loggers, etc. continue.  I worry that moving from systemd later might be painful and that alternatives that aren't supported now may actually pass on to the point there are no alternatives left.  Also that by the time everyone realizes that the depends on systemd list is so large that there is nothing that doesn't depend on it those other projects will be gone.  This though might be much ado about nothing and I would be most interested in the feelings of others not on systemd per say but on the future.  This is also the direction I have been flailing around trying to encourage.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on September 30, 2014, 02:26:37 AM
Wow this thread has a life all its own!

Quote from: uselessd
The fact that systemd offloaded a lot of work for distro maintainers was probably the main motivation for its adoption. Distro maintainers are lazy.
I find that statement mildly offensive.  If you look back over the last couple of years, the work VastOne has put into this distro is anything but lazy.  I mean, VastOne is regularly rolling out new ISO's every 2 weeks! (yes I realize the guy is being cheeky) I do agree that in offloading much of the work, systemd seemed cool and easily used.  I suppose that should have terrified us the most in the first place.  It is a growing monster that doesn't seem to be slowing down, and if anything, growing more intrusive every day.
Quote from: uselessd
uselessd is still in its early stages and it is not recommended for regular use or system integration, but nonetheless, below is what we have thus far
While it made for interesting reading, and sounds like it would be great, at present there is only one dev for uselessd.  How long before he tires of the wonderful work he's done?  Then what...
Quote from: uselessd
To be quite fair, we advise against using GNOME altogether.
bwahahahahaha  :D
Quote from: uselessd
Any other viable sysvinit alternatives?

We mentioned nosh above, which looks like it has the most potential to be a systemd killer. It is, however, in desperate need of support and publicity.

Otherwise, plenty. “systemd or sysvinit” is a false dichotomy. We list some at http://boycottsystemd.org (http://boycottsystemd.org).

uselessd is meant to address the issue of using systemd without intrusive functionality and feature creep, with portability in mind, and coherent, conservative design principles and focus. We never expected initd to become this controversial, but ultimately it did. Getting out of this mess won’t be pleasant, but the Linux userland is known for its highly iterative and constantly evolving/recycling nature. Alternatives are bound to gain more traction, and the systemd interface replacements will likely speed up the process.

Either way, we see the whole debacle having a fate similar to HALd and devfsd, but with a stronger backlash.
Agree!  But wait, there's more!
Quote from: uselessd
systemd is designed to be perpetually rolling software, not all that different from a kernel in user space, as was elucidated in a 2014 GNOME Asia (http://0pointer.de/public/gnomeasia2014.pdf) talk. It has no clearly defined purpose beyond that other than the vague “basic building block to make an OS from”, though vagueness is probably a feature in of itself to justify intrusive functionality. The systemd developers don’t see software as a solution, they see it as a zero-sum game. A battle after battle to be won.

The end goal appears to be the creation of what we dub a Grand Unified Linux Operating System (GULOS) and the destruction of the Linux distribution altogether beyond cosmetic changes. GnomeOS, in particular. The latter is actually a thing that GNOME aspire to accomplish.
Very succinctly said!  Last weekend is a great example of the above quote.
Thanks for the post ozi, it was a good read.  Proof that systemd is still the "elephant in the room"...

@statmonkey, great post, especially
Quote from: statmonkey
or systemd hangs itself on it's own petard.
Truly you are a great word-smith!!!
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 30, 2014, 02:38:18 AM
Ahhh thank goodness I get my daily dose of the JEDI I was headed into heavy withdawl without it. 8)

Jokes aside the comments on the actual post http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html (http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html) @siralucardt pointed out are becoming interesting.  Might want to watch that over the next day or so.  Sorry I find the Reddit stuff too filled with trolls and violent over-reactions.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 30, 2014, 02:44:59 PM
I have found the angst that you have been pushing statmonkey...  In setting up a sysVinit ISO I removed spacefm and began the thunar install.. this clearly shows that thunar and by proxy XFCE 4 depends on and installs systemd

get thunar

Code: [Select]
The following NEW packages will be installed:
  gdisk gstreamer1.0-plugins-base gvfs gvfs-common gvfs-daemons gvfs-libs
  libgstreamer-plugins-base1.0-0 libgstreamer1.0-0 libpam-systemd
  libpoppler-glib8 libpoppler46 libsecret-1-0 libsecret-common libthunarx-2-0
  libtumbler-1-0 libudisks2-0 policykit-1 policykit-1-gnome poppler-data
  systemd-sysv thunar thunar-data thunar-volman tumbler tumbler-common udisks2
  xdg-user-dirs

If we stay with systemd in the long run this is not an issue.. BUT NOW I FEEL MY HANDS TIED and really wonder what the hell we are doing... I am not throwing my hat in any direction but all of a sudden another file manager looks real good ..

I cannot have thunar even in the vsido-welcome as it would totally change the landscape of VSIDO

statmonkey... Say whatever you want man.. please do not refrain at all.  I need opinions now more than anything..
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on September 30, 2014, 05:04:52 PM
They are working toward a unified desktop as they have stated clearly.  As I said, I don't know what more I can say that I haven't. It's a hard one.  There is pain with either choice but if I was doing it I would avoid systemd as long as I could, that is realizing that more and more things are going to be pulled into systemd as integrated and dependent and an increasing number of alternatives will need to be found.  Read that as it will be a lot of work for the community most likely and the maintainer.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on September 30, 2014, 05:15:24 PM
I've moved everything back to sysVinit and spacefm-gtk and removed lightdm. Once I get the login/logout issues resolved I will release new ISO's
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on October 01, 2014, 12:41:20 PM
Nice....looking forward to kicking the tires and taking it for a spin 8)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on October 09, 2014, 05:33:57 PM
More reason to suspect their motives:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/10/7/254

Political/corporate takeover tactics in open source?
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: zbreaker on October 09, 2014, 06:50:47 PM
 :(

Sad indeed.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on October 10, 2014, 02:55:27 AM
More reason to suspect their motives:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/10/7/254

Political/corporate takeover tactics in open source?

Gosh, I wish I found this surprising or shocking.

 
Quote
We knew that would happen. Accommodations are only a temporary
stratagem with the systemd people. They are out to conquer.

Yep, we have been discussing that in here for months. 

Thanks for the post btw
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on October 10, 2014, 03:04:34 AM
Have you confirmed this?
Quote
A few days ago the Debian administration ruled out any use of a systemd "substitute" (cancelling its own systemd-shim project for desktop users) and now requires systemd whole hog

I am simply trying to parse through FUD and non FUD. The vitriol over this issue is still so rampant that it is impossible to read anything without questioning it
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: ozitraveller on October 10, 2014, 03:51:18 AM
I came across these 2 posts the other day, and in light of the current discussion I'm puzzled.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2014/10/msg00037.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2014/10/msg00037.html)
https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2014/10/msg00039.html (https://lists.debian.org/debian-live/2014/10/msg00039.html)
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on October 10, 2014, 04:04:00 PM
It's always good to question everything.  That said, I apologize for my comments, they serve no purpose other than my own venting.  If we are going to look for a smoking gun on the intentions of the systemd crowd that is going to be a long search.  In the end all that really matters is research was done, pluses and minuses laid out and a decision made.  It was the right decision.  I don't think it is realistic to think that you can have a debian sid distro that uses anything other than systemd. 

Sometimes you have to just pick yourself up off the ground, wipe your mouth and walk away.  In this particular case I think getting and continuing to follow new information is good, it just is unnecessary for there to be cheerleading/grave dancing like I did, even if it is unintentional.  This is a systemd distro and I heartily accept that.  I will do a better job of keeping my I told you so's and TD celebrations to myself. 

There is a lot of fud and emotions are running high for all the reasons we have discussed. Lennart has said several times that he did not think there could be a compromise on what systemd's functions and processes it got involved in were, nor did he think there could really be alternatives once started on the systemd path. IIRC his reasoning was that systemd was so far along and so tightly integrated to several parts of debian that he did not think that would allow a parallel alternative system that would long term work for debian.  He also said that people were welcome to try but in the end it would be a waste of time.  I am not sure where that was but I believe it was in one of the conference videos when the subject of dual development came up and also in one of the reddit threads he started.  It makes some sense if you look at how systemd works and all that it pulls in/we have seen changes in depends already and I don't think that any of this is a surprise.  Again, I am only mentioning this in an effort to clear fact from fiction.  In the end the decision is what matters and you move forward.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: VastOne on October 10, 2014, 04:38:41 PM
I am sorry statmonkey if it was me who pushed you into thinking that you had to respond in that way. I was really serious in that I could not find any links anywhere that led to where that information came from and was just trying to get it.

I do appreciate your feedback and how candid you always are, thanks mate.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on October 10, 2014, 05:59:47 PM
Nobody pushed me into thinking anything.  I thought about what I wrote yesterday and realized the futility of it, then commented on what I had come to realize, I just will try to do better.  You are either a part of the solution or the problem and whining over the results does not add value.  I don't want to be a source of discord in this community or a pot stirrer.

I am being completely sincere - questioning everything is good!  Your questions regarding where this came from and whether it even has relevance is good.  I have not searched for the context of the email because I just don't think there is any point.  I do however believe that it is not a surprise and is exactly what they have already said they would do (throwing out the conspiratorial plot to infiltrate debian with redhat goons), that once you go systemd that is it there is no going back.  I believe that the upstart people said exactly the same thing about their system.

You have nothing to apologize for.  Moving on.
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jedi on October 11, 2014, 01:08:22 AM
VSIDO is a systemd distro, as it is based on Debian's SID branch, and Debian adopted systemd as it's init of choice..
[Edit,snip,snip]

Someone should point out that the LKML.org mail list isn't  the best source of correct information on the interwebs.  I have not been able to find one scintilla of that link having any merit or information based in factual info.  Not one.  I could look harder, but really, what is the point?  I am glad that jeffreyC posted it here.  It proves to me that we have a very engaged community here at VSIDO.org.

I, as well as many other Linux users, have continuously changed our minds on the issue of systemd for a long time.

BUT

Well, there is no but...

Had a buddy stop by, and can't remember what I was gonna say.  Probably important to the future of systemd too!
I will admit surprise at Mr. Torvalds views on systemd and the Un*x philosophy.  If anything, he is totally ambivalent about it all.  Check it out from his interview here (http://www.itwire.com/business-it-news/open-source/65402-torvalds-says-he-has-no-strong-opinions-on-systemd)!
Other cool 'Torvalds' interviews can be found using google's search feature!   ???
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: statmonkey on October 11, 2014, 02:35:49 AM
What?  Google has a search feature????? Who knew :)

I Really enjoyed that Linus interview thank you Jedi.  Probably would not have taken the time without you posting it.  I am reading the Lennart file system one now and holding my breath.  I do disagree with a few of Linus' comments on systemd (the horror!) but overall interesting.  I can't say it changed my outlook, just interesting.

The Lennart article is on packaging, filesystems, etc and is here: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html (http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html) if anyone is interested
Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: jeffreyC on October 12, 2014, 05:25:29 AM
Things I'm reading have me increasingly concerned about systemd;
Seems that it is planned to take over package management, and become the underlying process for the terminal.

WhatDaFuq does an init system need to get involved in doing all that for?

The end result will be that ALL Linux distros will become the same.

Aren't these devs employed by the same company that employs the Gnome3 devs who work so diligently to eliminate all deviation from "the brand" and talk of creating the GnomeOS.
Interestingly Gnome3 has systemd as a dependency.

Edit: this was written before I read statmonkey's post about systemd taking over how the file system works:
http://vsido.org/index.php?topic=826.msg9694#msg9694 (http://vsido.org/index.php?topic=826.msg9694#msg9694)

Title: Re: VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion
Post by: PackRat on January 31, 2015, 02:30:02 AM
Bit of a puff-ball interview, but some interesting comments. (http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/)