VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion

[VastOne]

PackRat originally started this discussion in the ScreenShot thread where he let us all know Siduction had moved to systemd

If debian goes with upstart,  I may have to will rethink everything.  I see no value in that move at all

I'll tear apart siductions implementation of systemd and see how they did it... perhaps engage with them on any pitfalls

[statmonkey]

Thanks for that information PackRat I will be checking out Siduction when I get a moment.  It is interesting timing given what I read yesterday http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTU1NjA. If you are interested here is also a post from Lennart Poettering (a key player in systemd) from some time ago, October I think https://plus.google.com/+LennartPoetteringTheOneAndOnly/posts/8RmiAQsW9qf it's a good read as well.

The interesting part of this (at least my take) is that both Upstart and Systemd are going to impact the "freedom" of development because they are very (struggling for the right word) ... territorial - about how they handle core layers.  Meaning that choosing one or the other means a great deal to how, who and what api's are developed moving forward. 

VastOne, my initial reaction about Upstart is the same as yours but I've done a fair amount of research and I am not sure it will be totally devastating.  I like systemd, I use systemd but it is far from fool-proof.  The systemd guys claim that without total buy-in they can't take it much further and the reason for the bugginess is the fact that it hasn't been adopted.  It has a bit of a campaign slogan feel to me, I wonder if they will fulfill their promises if they get their wish.  Upstart and the further "canonicalization" of Debian also freaks me out, I won't lie.  But my gut/intuition tells me this is the direction Debian will go and they are just waiting for the shoe to drop.  In the end they need users/installs or they are just BSD 2.0. Canonical gives them that and they need Canonical more than Canonical needs them (as Mark ShuttleGates is happy to tell anyone who will listen).

All this blather (sorry for the ramble) is really just my way of saying, if you have the time this is an issue to read a little of the facts on and it impacts every Debian User.  There is a lot of sturm und drang out there and to be fair Upstart has some advantages.  It is the long term implications that I think few are considering and which I think Lennart points out nicely.  Oh, one last thing.  I think it was on Reddit (which I rarely read) but Lennart got into a flame war with a few Upstart fans.  If you can find it the unintentional comedy is pretty good. 

[VastOne]

Thanks for all that statmonkey, I appreciate it

I have issues with both upstart and systemd actually... With upstart it is simply because debian would have to agree with Canonical's contributor agreement and I cannot see that happening at all.  I am also frightened by debian's desire/need to get in bed with canonical and shuttleshit

Systemd on the other hand is a major concern because of Lennart... I do not like his views and demands of it being done his way or no way... I do not agree with his development style at all (works on mine, whats your problem?) and I do not care for his 'needs' to be in the middle of flame wars like you pointed out

Does not leave much for debian/VSIDO to look forward to... but only time will tell

I have moved this discussion to it's own thread.  I think it is a necessary discussion on VSIDO

Thanks

[VastOne]

Moved to it's own thread for discussion

[statmonkey]

Appreciate you heading this off in it's own direction, I really feel this is important.  Could not agree more with your comments regarding Lennart and his 'tude it seems frightening that we are down to a choice between Lucifer and Beelzebub at this point.  I believe I mentioned to him that his "truculence" was not earning him many converts and his response was pretty much "so?" 

If you do get in touch with the Siduction people you might want to touch base with Devil (keeping on a theme I guess over there.  I have corresponded with him frequently over the years (you probably already know him he has been very active in the Sid world) since my old Aptosid days and he has his head on straight.  I also am not sure if you read the Survey thread http://forum.siduction.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=3499 over there but some good points in it.  Early on a user wrote:

Sure. Others have stated this much better than I can, but the ideas came to me as soon as I started seeing what systemd does in Arch Linux, about a year ago. It not only takes the responsibilities of an init system, but also the functions of udev, dbus, system logging, and possibly others.

In my opinion, this major bundling of functionality reduces my software freedom of choice. It does not fit with the Linux principle of "do one thing and do it right".

Maybe my thinking is unsound, but that is the way I feel about it.

Thanks,
Tim

I think he stated humbly and very well part of what I was trying to say earlier.  I would be interested in any more thoughts you have and if you are up for it a chat with IG might be in order.  He has some pretty strong and of course, good thoughts on the matter.  In fact I believe he stated he was going to stay sysv at all costs.

Oh and I just read the Canonical agreement you linked to. OMG.  I see lightdm on that list -- I think I will be swapping out my dm.

[VastOne]

I have read that thread, all of it as a matter of fact.  I do not know devil, but regard him highly and his obvious knowledge

Siduction is a 'different' place... Do not get me wrong, I lub it!  They are in their own world there and even though we are in the same SID playground, I doubt very much if anyone there has even heard of VSIDO or regards it as any type of 'peer' ... Doing a search on that site for VSIDO brought up one reference... Not that his means anything, but I think it is an important note

I agree, perhaps it is time to discuss this or bring IgnorantGuru in on it... I always look forward to his opinions... 

[VastOne]

Damn it man!  When you do switch out your dm, let me know what you come up with ... we will have to adjust VSIDO's as well

[statmonkey]

True about their own world and frankly barely interested in that world other than I know quite a few people over there.  As a distro I find their direction rather ............. confusing.  I mean Gnome 3??  But, it's a much friendlier place than Aptosid ever was and they do build a nice disto package, just nothing I would ever be interested in.  I do think Devil is one of those Linuxers who is interested in Linux as a whole and problems as a distro builder, at least that has always been my experience.  There are a couple of people over at Arch that have been pretty helpful to me on systemd issues as well.

You read that whole thread?  That is why you are the man and I am just a flunky.  I cherry picked but again found some things interesting.  One of them is that there is some vehemence in the community against systemd from the start.  I am not sure how much of that is fact based and how much is rumor based but there is a strong bias present.

I am quite honestly not nearly as knowledgeable on Upstart and need to get more so.  I would say that personally I have a strong bias against it and that is more rumor than fact based. Actually it is more conceptual than issue based.  Systemd has an advantage for me because I use it.  Having read that agreement you linked to I have to admit it is going to be hard for me to buy into Upstart.  If there is any leg work I can do for you on this let me know.

You know what sucks?  I really like lightdm too.  I just discovered the scripting part of it through using arandr, it's really well done.  Oh well, I can't sleep with the enemy.  I am already doing that research and will let you know but it sounds like something that Dizzie, lfwitz, Jedi or PackRat have probably already figured out.

[Digit]

housekeeping request: could we get a link to the thread this seems to have been spliced from, since it references other content now lo longer present.  thnx oh, i see, screenshot thread

The interesting part of this (at least my take) is that both Upstart and Systemd are going to impact the "freedom" of development because they are very (struggling for the right word) ... territorial - about how they handle core layers.  Meaning that choosing one or the other means a great deal to how, who and what api's are developed moving forward. 

well said.  i think that highlights the crux of the matter quite well indeed.

so...

if life has thrown us some disruption lemons, lets make some shake-up lemonade.  ^_^  why not then give a broader look around, and see what others could also be up for consideration...  vsido already is bold and courageous enough to pick pieces of software that seem/feel, to many of us, to be the "best" choices, even if it does somewhat cut against the debian mother superior grain (remastersys > debian live unhelper).

now i'll preface the rest of what i have to say on this with a disclaimer that i've not looked with any great depth into any of these, especially with regards to the issues involved with implementation with debian, and have more of a "admire from afar" take on these...  but having said that, if shit's potentially getting shaken up, lets consider from a wider pool of options, since there are pros&cons to each.  additional to this disclaimer... yes, i know the thread title says systemd and upstart discussion... i'm just that kind of maverick to ignore that and paint further outside the lines, lol, sry.

openrc.
i'm not sure, maybe this seems like a hefty overkill for vsido... but it is mmmmmmmnice.   ... sorry, my gentoo-fanboi-ism shining through.

runit.
have a read through of dragora's info about it... sounds rather clean and well thought out, with very little obfuscation, easy access for users to suss.

epoch.
k, maybe i'm reaching too far into the wilds... but, if the likes of systemd and even upstart are on the cards, sure, why not consider epoch too!    its aimed to be small, simple and elegant..  and it packs a reasonable feature punch with that simplicity.



ok, ok, i'll stop before i go wild n suggest smf or something as daft.   just wanted to stretch the edges of considerations since signs of potential disruption seem like an opportune time for it.

i suppose my recent revisiting of exherbo has contributed to my thinking here.... there, as in gentoo, one is not limited to one init system, and has a choice.  ... though i do understand how this is less viable to implement in a distro like vsido, and thus makes discussions such as this more important to get right.   hope i've helped, and not hindered.


PS.   having said all that... if it aint broke... 

[statmonkey]

Fantastic input Digit (as always)

Blame VastOne he named the thread 

Not really familiar with any of those so I have some work to do. 

if life has thrown us some disruption lemons, lets make some shake-up lemonade.

Thinking out of the box is always a contribution.

[VastOne]

I lub savant (Digit) for sharing this incredible knowledge and for the additional insights to what is available

(I'll let the Gentoo fanboi slide this time) ... 

Great post, and a great dicussion by all!

[VastOne]

Just saw this...

PS.   having said all that... if it aint broke... 

And love it even more!

[VastOne]

Fantastic input Digit (as always)

Blame VastOne he named the thread 

Not really familiar with any of those so I have some work to do. 

if life has thrown us some disruption lemons, lets make some shake-up lemonade.

Thinking out of the box is always a contribution.

I am v-ger, I am always right and always wrong and always to blame!  And your right, thinking out of the box is probably the most important contribution

[statmonkey]

One more thing.  Regarding the "if it ain't broke" comment.  I do agree and with Debian always moving at the speed of snails it is hard to know when/if a decision will be made but based on posts I have been reading this is seeming to come to a head finally.  In one of the Phoronix posts I linked to I think he mentioned that votes were being cast (posted on Nov. 30) so if we stay in the middle of the road we might get run over.  Really excited by Digit's suggestions and love that lemonade metaphor.  As he suggested there might be an opportunity here after all.

v-ger?  LOL I can't keep up.  I am Monkey-ger and I know nothing!

[Digit]

i suppose i'll be d'ger then... i'll make that du-ger, just to keep it fitting... (danish for "you increase", (or so says online translation tools) ~ just as i did in this thread).

getting run over by staying in the middle of the road... or perhaps, if we dont decide, a decision will be made for us... yeah.  that lights a fire under our ass then.  jings

ps,
VastOne went to bed with the mantra "one simply cannot kick syvinit"...