VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion

[VastOne]

^ I see that happening as well... and not as far out as you would think for such a hefty project

[statmonkey]

Where to next FreeBSD, Haiku, .....

Where to next? I'll stick my neck out here - so bookmark this post  - if upstart is adopted, the purists devs will leave and fork (probably not the correct word here) debian into a new distro with systemd. More power to them if they do.

Bookmarked.

I would say this is already in the works to some extent.  The only word in that I would disagree with is "purists" I don't see us as purists and we are sure as heck of a mind on this.  I am never able to predict group think and how the mass reacts but:
People who write api's for init level connections are not going to like this
People who are GNU/Foss champions are not going to like this
People who believe in the Debian Social Contract are not going to like this
Programmers/coders who can look at this and see the silliness of pulling apart an integrated package to slap in something that probably has a lower ceiling and less capability are not going to like this
People who need to access sockets/IPv6 are not going to like this
People who are just anti large external influences are not going to like this ...

The list goes on and on.  I think it is a pretty big list.  What about the committee people who seem rational here like the guy who wrote the really detailed summary.  Is he going to be able to continue to work for something that is so obviously wrong a decision on all levels?

I think there is a huge shakeout and I agree with you, this community is resilient there will be something rise out of the ashes.  I don't think I am just spreading sunshine here either, the more I think about it the more positive I am.

[VastOne]

^ For some strange reason, 

Divinyls - I Touch Myself

suddenly goes through my head....

Russ Alberry has already publicly stated that no matter the decision made he would honor and support it

[hakerdefo]

This discussion thread has shown emotional and philosophical sides of members.
But realistically speaking Debian is choosing between devil and deep blue sea. It loses and suffers no matter what is chosen. Only gainers here will be RedHat or Canonical.
And how can we blame RedHat-systemd or Canonical-upstart? They have their own interests. And they should and they will protect their profits-interests. systemd and gnome go hand in hand cause that's what serve RedHat the best. On the other hand Canonical has it's own plans of unity across PC-TV-Phone. And their shuttle is going to steam toward that goal.
In the end remember what ma quail said to her babies "Be self sufficient and don't rely on others."
Debian sadly is going to learn this lesson the hard way no matter what it decides.
I would only hope and request VastOne to continue the journey of VSIDO regardless of what Debian chooses.
P.S. I won't kid my self with the idea of some Debian developers creating a Debian-systemd fork.
Cheers.

[statmonkey]

This discussion thread has shown emotional and philosophical sides of members.
But realistically speaking Debian is choosing between devil and deep blue sea. It loses and suffers no matter what is chosen. Only gainers here will be RedHat or Canonical.
And how can we blame RedHat-systemd or Canonical-upstart? They have their own interests. And they should and they will protect their profits-interests. systemd and gnome go hand in hand cause that's what serve RedHat the best. On the other hand Canonical has it's own plans of unity across PC-TV-Phone. And their shuttle is going to steam toward that goal.
In the end remember what ma quail said to her babies "Be self sufficient and don't rely on others."
Debian sadly is going to learn this lesson the hard way no matter what it decides.
I would only hope and request VastOne to continue the journey of VSIDO regardless of what Debian chooses.
P.S. I won't kid my self with the idea of some Debian developers creating a Debian-systemd fork.
Cheers.

Vastone you are correct.  He did say that.  ... 

hakerdefo and you are also correct sir.  But, tilting at windmills is needed sometimes and philosophical/emotional input helps (in the proper perspective in decision making).  Your comments on Red Hat are particularly apt and it should not be swept under the table that they exist.  To that end another person who I respect in the community has weighed in on this (somewhat dated but certainly still valid)  http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/red-hat-flag/ there are quite a few links off IG's original post and all worth reading.  Whether I agree with his position or not I do respect it.  What they do discuss is that there are people working on forks and different answers.  The momentum is not there but there is potential.  I am not quite ready to throw in the towel on Linux yet.  Debian is though walking around with a fork in its back (I am not sure if that is literal or not). To your credit you have remained in the either choice is not a choice as opposed to the lesser of two evils approach I think I have taken. 

I would like to second the idea that VSIDO continuing.  Then again I am not the dev that would be facing significant challenges regardless of what road is chosen.  This is a vibrant, interesting, intelligent community (present company excluded) and most of all an excellent well thought out and put together distro. 

I do remember when the Unity/Gnome disaster hit and there was a lot of doom and gloom.  I now look at that as a blip.  Perhaps this will be the same.  There are some awesomely creative/innovative people out there and I chose not to underestimate them.

P.S. I freely confess my open desire to kid myself relentlessly that someone will overcome this challenge and the core principles that Debian was founded on will live another day. 

[Digit]

Canonical could give a flying diminutive rodents lower locopodus whether upstart works for Debian or not

oh i think they'd care, so long as debian is still their upstream, and only so far as it benefits them.



i've remarked a few times how in some ways systemd is like xkcd 927, (done poorly, lennart's reasoning in #27, etc), but at least it is going for a unifying standard... upstart seems rather more antithetical to that sort of thing.

on the systemd myths page (which i'm glad i've given a second read~ or is it third... maybe i read it long ago too), i'm still miffed by #15 (relates to 10 too, but is less obvious in the wording/admission)...  oh, and the bit about being more like bsd in organisation...  that's perhaps not a plus to some people...  i like the clean coherence of bsd systems... i'm less cheery about their organisational structure and ethos.

i havnt read nearly as much about upstart, and before this started, had a lot of misconceptions that have since been cleared up (some misconceptions about systemd too, though i at least had some accurate notions about it), but my grievances and misgivings about this upstart (at least as it is in my imagination) seem all the more dire.  ...  doubly so to think what it'd cause in the broader debian community that we're part of.  "that we're part of"~ heh, yeah, until (((IF))) upstart is hoisted upon us...  ...  surely not though...  not as an imposition, surely not. 

oh how we'd all flee....

hrmm... maybe that'd be a good thing in a way.  an unpleasant transition for sure... but maybe it'd do the foss community good to get shaken up n scattered around other distros some more.  too many of us use debian, and especially so, too many of us use, and have used, only debian.  ... by definition, that makes those for whom that's true, "debtards".  same as "wintards", in that, it's all they've ever known, and yet still claim it's the best (if only by their continued use, without seeking out alternatives).


sry if that's an offensively bitter pill for anyone to swallow.   ^_^  it's not necessarily derogatory.  it's possible it is the best, for you.


it's good to get some diverse knowledge and learning.  that way we can always come back home some day (even if it ends up being a new home) with new tricks up our sleeves. 

[statmonkey]

oh how we'd all flee....

hrmm... maybe that'd be a good thing in a way.  an unpleasant transition for sure... but maybe it'd do the foss community good to get shaken up n scattered around other distros some more.  too many of us use debian, and especially so, too many of us use, and have used, only debian.  ... by definition, that makes those for whom that's true, "debtards".  same as "wintards", in that, it's all they've ever known, and yet still claim it's the best (if only by their continued use, without seeking out alternatives).


sry if that's an offensively bitter pill for anyone to swallow.   ^_^  it's not necessarily derogatory.  it's possible it is the best, for you.


it's good to get some diverse knowledge and learning.  that way we can always come back home some day (even if it ends up being a new home) with new tricks up our sleeves. 

Well said.  That was where I was trying to get to in my other post.  I've used Gentoo, BSD, etc. other 'nix's but agree I have probably become a debtard.  I don't take that as a negative.

Pain is growth.  Not to get all Jungian but this is just a truth in the real world.  I think all of us have become to comfortable and taken a path of least resistance.  Whether I think Debian is "best" or not I don't know but I do think it is comfy and easy to administrate etc. The overall installed base of Debian is so much higher for a reason.  Doesn't mean others do not offer benefits, it's just that Debian has a lot of features and abilities that I appreciate. That being said it is amazing how revolting I found IgnorantGuru's comments about the death of Debain 2 years ago and how sensible he seems now. 

I don't think Mr. Savant you have said anything offensive at all.  Then again I may not be the best judge as I am sure some of my posts are unintentionally offensive. 

Hmm, what did the v-ger edit out??

[hakerdefo]

...tilting at windmills is needed sometimes and philosophical/emotional input helps (in the proper perspective in decision making)...
...This is a vibrant, interesting, intelligent community (present company excluded)...
...P.S. I freely confess my open desire to kid myself relentlessly that someone will overcome this challenge and the core principles that Debian was founded on will live another day. 

Yes emotions are what differs us from robots.
Re present company excluded, your well informed posts and your great passion made this a great thread.
Amen to Debian core principles living for another day, for forever.
Cheers.

[VastOne]

@Digit, thanks mate, well said

Most of us who really give a shit about this are hardened distro whores who have been all over the map.  For me personally, seeing Debian take a hit would be a good thing especially if a large group branches out to yet more opportunities.  I am also looking forward to the backlash and will enjoy seeing Debian's arrogance over this getting headlined worldwide... Debian Sells Out!  That will be an interesting discussion.

As much as I appreciate and even admire IGuru, some of his tomes have come off as a bitter individual who demands change or expects things to be done as he wants on his timeline... Not that is any different than a lot of us, maybe it is just done with a bit more angst... actually, he reminds me a lot of Lennart

Is this personal and emotional to me? Of course it is... In the last week I have gone from being so extremely proud of this community (of which I am even more proud of now) to talking about shutting VSIDO down... I think I may have said this on the IRC also, that this would be a good way to break up all the derivatives of Debian..  Digit said it would be a good idea to pool the resources of the derivatives and create something from that... That would be interesting but not likely to happen.. Of course this leads me to wonder how other Debian distrolettes are viewing this and if they are as passionate about it as we are...

Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

Now onto that nap I said I was going to take

[hakerdefo]

I said I won't kid my self with possibility of a Debian fork because Debian is huge. It's gigantic. In 2012 Debian's value was estimated at a whopping 19 billion dollars. RedHat's market capital is yet to reach 10 billion dollars mark. Canonical hasn't even crossed 1 billion mark.
See why they are interested in Debian.
Yes starting and running fork won't require 19 billion dollars but you can bet that it will be a huge sum.
Money talks whether we like it or not.
Cheers.

[statmonkey]

This is all about how to eat an elephant.  You are not going to get it done in one go.  The fact remains that nature abhors a vacuum and that large sucking noise you hear is the wind being sucked out of Debian.  It is all about the Benjamin's and I think throughout this thread we have acknowledged that fact.  One hell of a lot more than anyone in the committee posts or conferences.  What those numbers suggest is that Debian itself is a large corporation and when viewed like that none of this should be surprising.  Probably the most surprising thing is that so many of us have a passion for a corporate entity that does not care or think we are a part of it.  It's sobering to realize that I am defending a 19B behemoth.  It would seem the tree is falling and I am not seeing it.

One thing that I have come to appreciate over the years is how "not special" I am.  I don't say that disparagingly but just matter-o'-fact.  I am an average person, with an average outlook.  I tend to find that even my most outlandish beliefs are more common than I would expect.  My point is that while I do think this thread is exceptional and the contributions of all of you are above the pale, I have to believe that more than most active members in any distro using Debian are probably having a great many of the same concerns, outlook and responses.  I can't predict the future nor will I try but one of the things I would discuss with Rip Vast Winkle after his nap is certainly more fleshing out of his perspective regarding what can be done with VSIDO if (apologies to Jedi) the turd hits the silver platter. 

The core of this distro is his vision, the user base and the contributions of all.  Like it takes village to raise a child it takes a community to make a distro.  There are opportunities here, painful as they may be in execution.

[zbreaker]

Here,here, VSIDO into the future, in whatever mantle we deem it for continuance.

[sqlpython]

I have been reading these 9 pages with interest and appreciation as the passion is what has made Linux a Giant.

For me this past year, my installs are some systemd and some sysv.
This is my 20th year this year as a Linux user. My 14th year Windows free personally (exception is an install at work along side the Linux Box)..
So, this isn't a knee jerk reaction for me. However after 9 pages of interesting discourse, some clarity, some illumination and lots of personal passion and beliefs we come to ...
To quote:
Russ Alberry has already publicly stated that no matter the decision made he would honor and support it
Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

The above quotes say it all and I will subscribe to both in my practice..

[statmonkey]

I have been reading these 9 pages with interest and appreciation as the passion is what has made Linux a Giant.

For me this past year, my installs are some systemd and some sysv.
This is my 20th year this year as a Linux user. My 14th year Windows free personally (exception is an install at work along side the Linux Box)..
So, this isn't a knee jerk reaction for me. However after 9 pages of interesting discourse, some clarity, some illumination and lots of personal passion and beliefs we come to ...
To quote:
Russ Alberry has already publicly stated that no matter the decision made he would honor and support it
Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

The above quotes say it all and I will subscribe to both in my practice..

Heading out of town early in the morning and just thought I would check up on the forum and see what in new.  I was confronted with this absolutely beautiful post.  Well played.  I will take these thoughts with me and be better for it.  Thank you.

[hakerdefo]

Change is good, learning is powerful, passion drives them both

An open appeal to VastOne. Just for the sake of change, learning and passion build a VSIDO test image featuring runit.
Here is a very good rant from a guy who loves and uses BSD-style init, hates upstart-systemd and makes a good case for runit,
http://wizardofbits.tumblr.com/post/45232318557/systemd-more-like-shit-stemd
And the official runit links,
http://smarden.org/runit/benefits.html
http://smarden.org/runit/replaceinit.html#sysv
I had a look but it's beyond my capabilities but it shouldn't be too hard for you. Give it a go, Who knows you might...
Cheers