America and the love for guns

[hakerdefo]

...It's political satire, not a documentary.

Really? May be some parts might have been edited to make it more easy to follow but does that make it a work of fiction? Didn't it win awards in 'documentary' category at Cannes and the Oscars? Do they give best documentary awards to work of fictions & satires?
@PackRat & @Jedi I came across this article in defense of Michael Moore and his documntary by Erik Möller, Deputy Director of Wikimedia  Foundation.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

[PackRat]

Although his movies are based on real events, he uses a lot of selective editing and distortion to make his points. Although not entirely fiction, most - if not all - of his films do not stand up to rigorous fact checking - do a search of fact checking for his movies and you'll have no shortage of hits. There has actually been criticism of him for submitting his films to the various film institutes as documentaries. As far as winning an Oscar goes, that ceremony has always (meaning as long as I have been alive to notice) been criticized for politicizing some of it's awards.

Michael Moore does raise some valid issues that merit discussion - the venue he has chosen for making his points tends to be disengenuous though.

[jedi]

@PackRat & @Jedi I came across this article in defense of Michael Moore and his documntary by Erik Möller, Deputy Director of Wikimedia  Foundation.

Yes, and we all know how accurate a lot of his wiki's are!   I'm definitely in PackRat's corner on this one.

Some really great comments after his rant though;

[snip]
Christ, it's a damn movie. It would take me longer to read this than watch the thing.
-1.

[snip]
Moore doesn't present an accurate portrayal. It's like saying that CNN and FOX accurately report the news. No, Mr. Moore presents clips to fit his audience's viewpoint. Presenting a "popular" viewpoint puts butts in seats. Do you really thing that Micheal Moore does what he does simply out of a desire to perform public services?
Heh. That wasn't for Eloquence's (Erik Möller) sake; that's for those of y'all who actually take Micheal Moore seriously.

[snip]
Good movie, maybe deserved an Oscar, but it was not a documentary.

[snip]
You're saying that Moore's film deserves to be an award-winning "documentary" because his specific semantics, when interpreted a certain way, dance just this side of the edge of the truth? There's a reason there's an op-ed section of newspapers, separate from the normal reporting sections. Documentaries should not use tricks of the camera or time-scale exaggerations to make a specific political point. To do so is disingenuous, and not in a documentary style.
The Academy should be ashamed, and Moore should be ashamed for allowing his edutainment to be so grossly miscategorized.
You spend a large portion of the text arguing against Hardy by saying that Moore had a point. Of course he had a point. That doesn't make the film a documentary. It merely makes it interesting.

[snip]
I've seen less logical gymnastics coming from a strict creationist.
Moore's film was entertaining and had a generally good message -- that we need to look at ourselves and ask "why are we so violent?" But his means were full of lies, distortions and editing tricks that do not belong in a documentary.
For reference, let's use the definition of "documentary," which is "Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film." Moore did not come close to achieving this goal.
10 days are more than enough to give advance warning of a change in location or date, had the NRA really wanted to
This shows the extent to which you are willing to go to excuse Moore. You do not tell that many people to change vacation plans, work schedules and flight reservations in 10 days. The most you can expect is to cut out all festivities and events, leaving only the required meeting -- which the NRA did. No one would have noticed the NRA being in town had the mayor not decided to use the visit for political gain.
I think the best scene in the movie was with Marilyn Manson who, when asked what he would have said to the Columbine kids if given a chance, said "I wouldn't say a single word to them. I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did."
[end of snips]

OK, back to reallity, I never thought I'd find myself in agreement with anything Mayilyn Manson espoused, much less consider it to be genius.  However, what he says in that last comment in his interview in the "movie" about talking to the kids at Columbine is totally on point.

@hakerdefoe, I didn't mean anything by criticizing "Bowling For Columbine", I was just wanting to point out that if you were using that "movie" to base your factual decisions on, concerning something of such import, then you should at least see what the other side has to say about Michael Moore.  The three links in my above post do just that.

I suppose, in the "big picture" view, the story about "America and the love for guns" is for me, easily summed up with this;  America has been armed to the teeth since escaping tyranny more than 300 years ago.  Short of turning America into a dictatorial state, and physically taking the guns from everyone, you'll never see a totally unarmed America.  At least in my lifetime.  Because of this, there exists a valid reason for the public to be, and remain, armed.  Sadly, until we live in Utopia, there will always be the need for a weapon.  If a man invades my home in the dead of night (or any time of day or night) with a gun, (even just his bare hands, or any other type of weapon) with the intent to do me and mine harm, I will vigorously and vociferously continue to own a gun, and certainly not hesitate to defend myself and my family with it.

[jedi]

Oh yeah, one more thing!    (what you all thought I was done?) 

As far as "mass shootings" go, America isn't even in the top 5!  And as for mass school shootings, it isn't just an "American" thing, or synonymous even, with America.  Of the top 20 school shootings ever, 13 were NOT in the U.S.!



One thing that is synonymous with "mass shootings", is madmen or crazy or mentally ill.  Good luck keeping a weapon out of the hands of a determined madman...

[hakerdefo]

I do have a serious question though.  When the only people committing gun crimes are the only people that have the guns, what then?

Criminals will be criminals with or without the guns but 12-13 year old kids (youngest was a six year old child) won't go on shooting their classmates.
America has experienced at least 28 school shootings since 1999 resulting in deaths of a total of 127 victims. No other country comes close to this numbers. No other country in this time period had more than 3 school shootings. Between 2000-2010, 23 countries other than US had incidents resulting in death on the school grounds. The number of total deaths resulting from such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 23 countries put together!

[hakerdefo]

...In over 200 years as a Nation, we've never had to worry about someone overthrowing the government, or taking away our liberties...

...If a man invades my home in the dead of night (or any time of day or night) with a gun, (even just his bare hands, or any other type of weapon) with the intent to do me and mine harm, I will vigorously and vociferously continue to own a gun, and certainly not hesitate to defend myself and my family with it.

Moore's documentary whether fact or fiction concludes that FEAR is woven into the fabric of American society. Fear leads to guns. The combinaion of guns & fear ends-up in mass shootings and violent crimes. jedi's comments quoted above make me feel that after all Michael Moore could be right about the FEAR.
EDIT:- A question came to me. If the hypothesis of 'FEAR woven into the fabric of American society' is true, where does that fear come from? What is the origin of this fear? American society has a history of injustice & oppression of Native Americans-African Americans-Mexicans. Any and every civilised society sooner or later feel the guilt for it's wrong doings. This feeling of guilt consciously or subconsciously always demands punishment. Origin of FEAR lies in the punishment that the guilt demands.

[seppalta]

... FEAR is woven into the fabric of American society.

I only speak to my own feelings.  Today guns are everywhere in America.  Teachers have them, go to a restaurant and somebody in a nearby booth will be openly packing a revolver, the police are so weighted down with special military-style armaments that they can barely move, etc.  I purposely avoid big crowds and do as much shopping as possible online to avoid crowded stores, prime areas for mass shooters.  I suppose Mr. Jedi will say that if I don't like it here so much, move somewhere else, the same alternative occasionally offered to German Jews in the 1930's.  My answer is I would except other considerations, such as being almost 80 years old, make that very impractical.

I remember being in Zurich, Switzerland sitting on the river bank watching some birds.  An old lady in a second floor apartment opened a window and yelled at me while waving a paper bag, which was clearly not terribly threatening.  We were not able to communicate very well - I thought she was offering me a treat for the birds, but it finally became clear that it was for me, apparently I looked a bit bedraggled.  I graciously accepted -- the best piece of cheese and pastry that I have ever eaten.  My point is that had that been in America today (It has not always been like this!), I would have gotten a warning (if I was lucky) gunshot and told to move on.

I did encounter one extreme danger in Europe.  Everyone there tried to kill me with good chocolate.  Luckily, I escaped before choking to death!

[ozitraveller]

Just wanted to add my 2C for what it's worth.

Down on the other side of the planet, isolated as we Aussies are on our own large island and with very strict gun laws doesn't mean we don't still have gun violence. And I don't think a society can stop violence completely. But having less guns certainly helps and having better control/management of gun owners helps too. Even out here in the middle of nowhere we can't plug all the holes to stop illegal trade.


@seppalta - death by chocolate! Sweet choice!

[seppalta]

Thanks for the input, ozitraveller.  Reminded me of the following:  australia
And I agree, death from a chocolate overdose would not be too bad, but, please, do not tell our state death penalty administrators.  They are dispirit to find new ways to kill.

[ozitraveller]

Hi seppalta

I remember it very well. It was at an historic penal settlement in Port Arthur. It was for the worst of the worst prisoners. And yes you are correct it was the point that gun laws changed.

But no laws can stop things like this. Random acts of violence. We just have to get better at weeding the rogues out.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-03/nsw-police-headquarters-gunman-was-radicalised-youth/6825028
http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/10/02/17/01/two-feared-shot-in-parramatta-in-sydney-s-west

And there are still more people killed in cars than with guns, at least here, anyway.

[hakerdefo]

...My point is that had that been in America today (It has not always been like this!), I would have gotten a warning (if I was lucky) gunshot and told to move...

A friend who has emigrated to America once told me that he absolutely avoided situations that might involve looking for an address as mistakenly entering a wrong premise could get him shot or killed in America. I thought he was exaggerating so I searched Google and found that half of the states in America have something called 'castle law' which allows landowners to injure, shoot, even kill those violating their property without any legal restraints. You can google 'Death of Yoshihiro Hattori' and you will be surprised and shocked. What caused death (read murder) of Yoshihiro Hattori?
FEAR+GUN

[seppalta]

In Montana we have the infamous "castle law", and recently had an incident similar to what happened to Yoshihiro Hattori.  However, we still have a few sane judges and the killer was found guilty:  BBC.   With guns available almost everywhere to almost everyone, people buy them like toys, and then otherwise perfectly sane people, armed with a gun, become vigilantes who determine right from wrong and set out to enforce their idea of right.  It makes a scary society and certainly not one wanted by reasonable people.

[zephyr]

# sudo apt-get install police and save me && sudo apt-get autoremove criminal --purge

There, everybody should be good to go, no thanks necessary.

[jedi]

So I'm extreme in my views.

I've concocted all of these arguments/opinions.

I'm in fear.

And last but certainly not least, I'm a *^&$ing NAZI?
WTF?

I am not a member of any political party, certainly not the corrupt GOP, but it was the president himself that took to his bully pulpit as soon as the Umpqua event, and was followed by most in his Democrat caucus.  Not mentioning one time his own home town of Chicago which has turned into a war-zone of it's own, and has been for several years now.  More people dead there from "GUNSHOT" in the last 2 weeks than in the last couple of mass shootings anywhere!  He hasn't mentioned that ONCE!  Political expediency indeed...

In my immediate family there are at least 3 times the number of guns owned as has been recovered from that lunatic in Oregon.  (brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles)  And with 5 murders in our immediate family, why wouldn't we have guns?  Are you kidding me?

If we're to stand against those who would want to destroy us, with or without guns, are we to stand there like a paper target, or would you rather have a gun to even up the odds a bit?

Fighting against gun crimes with guns doesn't make any sense

What?  So the guy is coming at you with a gun, the nearest cop is 40 miles away, what are you gonna fight back with?  Just curl up in a little ball and go gently into that good night?  Whatever!

Michael Moore is a propagandist and Bowling for Columbine uses staged and edited sequences. It's political satire, not a documentary.

Finally some sense!

Really? May be some parts might have been edited to make it more easy to follow but does that make it a work of fiction? Didn't it win awards in 'documentary' category at Cannes and the Oscars? Do they give best documentary awards to work of fictions & satires?

Yep, they've (Hollywood) been doing it for almost a century now!  Over and over and over.  Do you suppose all those Hollywood bigshot actors, directors, producers, and Washington D.C. politicians want to take away all the guns, or just the other guys guns?  Are they going to suddenly go without their own 'Secret Service' or personal protection details?  Are they going to remove the guns their bodyguards carry that are protecting their kids in their schools?  There is absolutely no way they will, or would.  And who can blame them?  HOWEVER, what is good for them should also be good for the rest of us.  Do you think that Michael Moore, who's net worth is over 50 million dollars thanks to his sickening so called documentaries, is going to have his personal protection detail suddenly give up their guns?  How assinine.  The same goes for the politicians in Australia and Great Britain.  Do you suppose that even after they've forcefully taken all of your guns, that their people don't have guns?  And now that you don't have your guns, I wonder why they need theirs?  How naive.

I do have a serious question though.  When the only people committing gun crimes are the only people that have the guns, what then?

Criminals will be criminals with or without the guns but 12-13 year old kids (youngest was a six year old child) won't go on shooting their classmates.
America has experienced at least 28 school shootings since 1999 resulting in deaths of a total of 127 victims. No other country comes close to this numbers. No other country in this time period had more than 3 school shootings. Between 2000-2010, 23 countries other than US had incidents resulting in death on the school grounds. The number of total deaths resulting from such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 23 countries put together!

A perfect example of refusing to answer a question!  And one more thing hakerdefoe, your conveniently leaving out the events in Oslo, Norway where Anders Behring Brevik in two attacks in one day killed 77 people (mostly kids, I think, something like 69 of them?) and injured another 319.  Last year in Peshawar, Pakistan 145 dead including 132 school kids.  Those two instances DWARF what has happened in America!

These are the facts.
Beslan, Russia 2004 - 385 killed 783 injured over a 4 day period.
Peshawar, Pakistan 2014 - 145 killed (132 children) 114 injured.  Both of these events happened at schools.

I'll stop with those two.  Since 1927 in America, 262 dead in aprx. 35 school shootings.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure of those 262 how many were children.  That is almost a century.

Whether they died from radical Islamic terrorists or one single lunatic madman, they were all killed at school.  One of the places a child should feel they are the safest, next to being at home.  While school shootings are tragic and life altering events, this thread was not started specifically asking about where and how many children died in school shootings.  It was started with a question concerning how we Americans felt about gun ownership/love of guns.  Because I as an American believe profoundly in the right to own a gun, does not mean that I'm "for" school shootings.  That is an absurdity, and to compare the two is offensive and beyond the pale.

Moore's documentary whether fact or fiction concludes that FEAR is woven into the fabric of American society. Fear leads to guns and guns to mass shootings. And jedi's comments quoted above make me feel that afterall Michael Moore could be right.

Whether fact or fiction?  Fear leads to guns, and guns lead to mass shootings?  Sorry, but this is idiotic.  If what you say is true, then extrapolating would mean millions of deaths in America due to mass shootings alone!  A really moronic statement.

Because I own guns, I am fearful?  Another truly uninformed statement.  I believe one could say that true fear would be watching a person with a gun coming at you and you've no way to defend or protect yourself.  That my friend would be my definition of fear!

As to seppalta's FEAR about seeing all those guns displayed, I'd think your fear would be better placed in considering the guns you don't see.  I'd be thankful about the fellow in the booth next to me carrying a handgun.  He'd be the guy I'd be hiding behind were I in your shoes and a criminal or crazy person came into the restaurant brandishing a gun (or machette, or chainsaw) claiming he/she was going to kill everyone there.  That fellow in the booth may just save your life!  I am all for that teacher having a gun!  Imagine if that professor at Umpqua had been carrying a gun.  Things may well have turned out quite differently than they did on that day.  As it happens, the lunatic who shot him first had the temerity to tell him he'd been waiting years to do just what he did.  Those few seconds could have saved some lives had "that teacher" had a gun.

I suppose Mr. Jedi will say that if I don't like it here so much, move somewhere else, the same alternative occasionally offered to German Jews in the 1930's.

This is why I encouraged that this thread be halted at the very beginning.  You sir, are comparing or equating me to a nazi?  Probably the most offensive thing anyone has ever said to me or about me.  If your 80 years old, then you're well aware that it was Americans with their guns that liberated the first concentration camps at the end of WWII, freeing said jews.  I seriously doubt that you've ever had a bullet fired at you in warning, though it would explain your extreme fear and loathing of guns.  If that has happened to you then I'm sorry for that traumatic event as I can't imagine how terrifying that would be.  Truly!

Your rudeness and lack of civility in comparing me to a nazi is totally uncalled for, and I would suggest that it would also mean your adding a Mr. in front of my monniker has been done not out of respect, but rather in mocking disparragment.  I'm simply Jed.  No mister is required.

Your propensity for avoiding large crowds, and shopping online due to your "fear" (fear without a gun?) of those places being, "prime areas for mass shootings", is indicative of your troubling lack of knoweledge concerning mass shootings.  Your more likely to get struck by lightning on your way out to get your newspaper, and then on your way back into your home, getting struck again.  It is a very lame argument.

And yes, cars kill more people than guns.  By a long shot!  Maybe we should ban cars too.  Or fatty foods, or ladders, or water, or I know, fast food restaurants etc etc etc.

I've tried in all my posts here to be constructive, respectful, and kind, even when not in agreement with my friends here who have a different opinion than my own.  Calling me a nazi?  Comparing me to a nazi?  Well, VastOne, you are not the only "pissed off" guy here now!  Perhaps I'll return later.  I can't play golf.

For anyone I've offended, I truly am sorry, but you asked me as an American how I felt about one of my "inalienable rights"!  And now you know...

ciao

[VastOne]

Unfortunately this is why I have tried to keep these types of threads away from these forums and to not have any kind of 'Free to talk anything' area...

I should have nipped this in the bud from the beginning, but I am not King nor do I want to be one.  I apologize to Jed for not allowing him to delete this from the beginning, but I am shocked at how it became his forum to preach to us about guns and protecting us and our rights. Having said that, to answer the initial question of this thread, Americans are deeply divided on this and a multitude of critically important issues we are facing right now.  Personally, I fear a civil uprising that will not be pretty at all

I want only to deal with the realities of FOSS and trying to build something someone could use.  I am going to close this thread now but will keep it all here as a lesson to anyone...  Even the simplest differences can cause a monumental collapse on levels you would not expect to happen in our environment.  We are not democratic at all...

I apologize to everyone here who I have offended

Terry aka VastOne

PM me if you have any further need of me