Author Topic: Runit vs systemd placeholder  (Read 15965 times)

statmonkey

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Runit vs systemd placeholder
« on: September 06, 2014, 05:28:53 PM »
This is just a placeholder folder for comments/ideas/links regarding runit.  I am looking forward to having a go at it this week as time permits (bit of another pject need to finish up).  Also this does not preclude that runit is a solution or an answer I would hope that if there are other suggestions people will start similar threads.

Currently I am starting with this thread as recommended by a friend http://smarden.org/runit/

VastOne

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 06:24:29 PM »
Thank you for this statmonkey...

I know it sounded as if I had no time for this, but in fact I do and will make additional time.  My initial look into runit was that it was overwhelming but I now see it is not incomplete like my initial thought was... It will just require some setup and work and I can get to it.. I am looking forward to working with you and anyone else who gets involved on this
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statmonkey

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2014, 03:38:28 PM »
I have been looking at this and runit doesn't look that bad.  The question/concern/issue really is from an integration standpoint.  Since the beginning you have had very little for the end user to care about when installing or adding about anything they wanted. if you move along a divergent path (regardless of what that path is at this level) you are going to add "complications" to this.  It really is the elephant in the room with the whole systemd decision.  I had planned on adding some examples to make myself clear but time and some pressing issues have gotten in the way and I don't want to drop this or let it seem as if it has been dropped.  I can give a reasonable example of what I mean and someone can check me if I am wrong ... I had a pretty similar issue already so I think I get it tho

Lets say someone developed a program that takes dmenu and then autostarts it's daemon at boot.  Besides autostarting it's going to check to see what mounts you have include that in the menu.  Since the author was an ubuntu guy, this is written to be triggered by the upstart boot process, upstart calls.  Now I hate Ubuntu and want to run it in Deb for me.  The developer either will have to rewrite the calls and rebuild it to work with systemd or I will or I can't use it.  I don't think this is a constant issue but there are some things that will have to be reworked.  It's not trivial, I personally would not mind it much but ... 

Not so serious in the above example with upstart and systemd since they are the crowd favorites and we have already had canonical running roughshod over a great many people so most things have Debian installs versus ppa's but in the case of runit this might/will cause issues and will mean either a fair amount of work for our fearless leader on a regular basis or a complicated set of issues for the users. Again, I may be making this more complicated than it is and it might be rare or extremely rare (feel happy to correct me) but I do think it's something that people should be aware of.


VastOne

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2014, 09:14:47 PM »
Wouldn't that scenario be the same for any init system?  sysVinit is so lacking that even standard shutdown and restarts are an issue

Is systemd, which is currently working on all levels OOTB, in the same situation and unpredictable? 

I do not want to have to think about any of it at all... That has always been the grand scheme, a plug and play SID system installable and re-installable in 5 minutes.  If I have to worry about the init system even handling simple tasks, it would seem that whatever does the job should win the job... Just my opinion
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PackRat

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2014, 09:36:19 PM »
"..a plug and play SID system installable and re-installable in 5 minutes"

Looks like you want to stick with the Debian default then; the repos will be coded to work with it. Stray too far from that, and you'll be running the risk of becoming a boutique distro.
I am tired of talk that comes to nothing.
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ozitraveller

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 12:37:10 AM »
I hope nobody minds if I stick my 2c in here??

There has been a shift to systemd for many of the major distros, and I think they will not likely shift again in the near future.

For me, as a small distro owner/sole maintainer, I don't want to and haven't the time to stray too far from mainstream debian and increase my workload. And loose 100% compatibility with debian.

This is one of my hobbies and if it becomes "WORK", then I'll move on to something else.

I've closed the door on this. Until I see Debian support interchangeable init systems, then it goes in the too hard basket.

Hence my comment on the other thread, sorry if I offended anyone.  :(

 :-[
Ozi

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 01:39:49 AM »
I am not aware of anyone being offended Ozi and I completely agree with your thought and decision...

Well said PackRat

statmonkey... I get and understand all the reasons why systemd is insane... but I do not see a clear alternative right now
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zbreaker

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 02:05:31 AM »
For better or worse, agreed.

statmonkey

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 02:36:52 AM »
"..a plug and play SID system installable and re-installable in 5 minutes"

Looks like you want to stick with the Debian default then; the repos will be coded to work with it. Stray too far from that, and you'll be running the risk of becoming a boutique distro.
I hope nobody minds if I stick my 2c in here??

There has been a shift to systemd for many of the major distros, and I think they will not likely shift again in the near future.

For me, as a small distro owner/sole maintainer, I don't want to and haven't the time to stray too far from mainstream debian and increase my workload. And loose 100% compatibility with debian.

This is one of my hobbies and if it becomes "WORK", then I'll move on to something else.

I've closed the door on this. Until I see Debian support interchangeable init systems, then it goes in the too hard basket.

Hence my comment on the other thread, sorry if I offended anyone.  :(

 :-[
Ozi

[edit] Ozi can't imagine what you said that might have been offensive.  I think we even agreed with you at the time that it had been talked to death.  But, again. If it has to be accepted we should really understand what we are accepting.  That was the point.[/edit]

I can't disagree.  That was really what I was trying to say with examples in my post above.  For my own personal systems I may well run runit or sysV but for a distro it would be a significant amount of work in maintenance, etc. That said, I also have some future projects that systemd is going to pose a significant hurdle to.

The finality of this decision (by Debian, the finality of the box it puts all of us in, the limiting of choices I mean) was part of what I was trying to communicate in my response to Jedi in the other thread.  The Debian decision really closes a great many doors, it's extremely impacting. 

Sorry for wasting anyone's time on this. 

I am not going to say I can accept this path and will probably at least play with BSD in the near term.

ozitraveller

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 03:26:10 AM »
@statmonkey it also bothers me that for all the variety in linux this is an area where that is not the case. I think it is a flaw and systemd isn't a "swiss army knife" of init systems.

VastOne

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 03:28:24 AM »
I am thoroughly confused...
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ozitraveller

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2014, 04:03:53 AM »
My brain hurts, I'm done with init systems unless someone comes up with one in my colour! ;D

Beer anyone?  8)

VastOne

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2014, 04:07:00 AM »
Popping the top on a classic ale now...

Fuck init systems for the time being
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ozitraveller

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 04:14:32 AM »
Now there's a man with a fine idea!  8)

A pint of guinness for me please!  ;D

PackRat

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Re: Runit vs systemd placeholder
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 12:29:22 PM »
A pint of guinness for me please!  ;D

your stock just went way up.
I am tired of talk that comes to nothing.
-- Chief Joseph

...the sun, the darkness, the winds are all listening to what we have to say.
-- Geronimo