VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion

[VastOne]

@statmonkey...

I am glad you mentioned Google in your post and thoughts... this whole issue with init systems (which IS what this is, not just a systemd issue) and upheaval reminds me exactly of that band of users who believe Google is SATAN and should never be used or ever trusted..  BTW, this is Google's 16th birthday

Anyone has that right to that opinion.. just do not be angry at me for not sharing it. 

I like Google and use it. When someone has a better solution, I will use it.  When there is a better solution in the init world than sytemd, I will use it

[jeffreyC]

A big part of the problem with systemd is the devs are from the same place (company) as the Gnome3 devs.
The Gnome3 devs work very hard to make it impossible to make any change to Gnome3, YOU WILL USE IT THEIR WAY OR NOT AT ALL.

[siralucardt]

So many interesting dicussions about systemd around lately.  I'm just going to leave this here.

http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html

And I for one am just a simple user, but one who cares about choice.  Systemd seems to be completely against that.

[superwow]

Good find @siralucardt and a good read. Of note is that Pardus OS uses python to initialize (available at https://github.com/Pardus-Linux/mudur. Interesting OS, was Gentoo now is Debian. The article itself seems to have lots of valid points, but a ton of comments, both on its own site and http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/2hkkwb/systemd_the_biggest_fallacies/.

[statmonkey]

I think this article brings us full circle.  Somewhere last year we debated a similar article and if I remember we also went through a Lennart posting where he defended himself against what he called "fraudulent attacks".  Thank you siralucardt for the post.  I want to point out two things that relate to things we are discussing currently.  One directly addresses something I am trying to drive home with the discussions of udevil/polkit/spacefm:

You used to be able to run logind separately but not anymore, and udev will likely be next to hard-depend on systemd.

This is something to keep in your mind for future app inclusion.  I also don't think the "absorption" of login is completed yet.

The other being:

The burden of proof is on you to show how many people use systemd because they explicitly want systemd, versus how many people use it because their distro mandated its adoption, or their workplace mandated its adoption, or they need to use something that hard-depends on it.

As I mentioned I have been using runit and surviving pretty well thank you.  I sort of half-arsed it but it works and I am learning.  I don't think there is anything new in those links both the for and against are the same as it ever was.  I remain convinced that systemd is "Ice nine" and I will take the advice of Bokonon and follow in John's footsteps, thumb ready, book of human stupidity at my side and a string for playing Cat's Cradle.  I joke, I joke.

[VastOne]

I am open to any suggestion..

We went to systemd before the Debian fiasco and at that time it was actually a 'cool thing', no where near the flame war / troll fest it is now.  If runit works and gets it done, then I am all for it

If sysVinit is still doable (it is) we can run back to that.. I have no issue changing but I do not want it forced upon just my shoulders

Make a decision people, I will follow it

[statmonkey]

No interest in forcing anything on anyone, after all this is just an init system.  Or is it?  I really feel like a turd but I have to go to a meeting right now.  I will use the meeting to pull my thoughts together and respond properly.  My apologies if my comment stirred up another mess.  Not my intention.

[VastOne]

^ Not at all... I speak as I feel and see it... Nothing to do with you!  Relax mate!

[VastOne]

Make a decision people translates to:

This community and VSIDO is larger than I am now.  I do not want the burden of it being just my distro. That is not fair to anyone

[ozitraveller]

Just thought I would throw this into the mix.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/

[statmonkey]

Just thought I would throw this into the mix.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/

LOL, that was a very fun read, entertaining even.   Sorry that last response of mine was dashed off and I should have just let it go.  I didn't think you meant it that way at all.  If anyone is meant to make a final decision it's VastOne.   

I probably have been needlessly opaque.    I really believe that at least until the dust settles* that systemd is the way to go.  I remain very concerned about feature creep and all the other stuff we have discussed in here but I also believe that should users have the "sophistication (for lack of a better word)" to care about what their init system is then they probably have the skills to swap out systemd for whatever they want to use.  I installed runit as a test of my theory since there was some down time between VSIDO builds and I am intending to do a complete reinstall soon anyway.  I found it relatively easy and it works fine from what I can see.

So to be clear I vote for staying with systemd until something better shows itself or systemd hangs itself on it's own petard.

Now to be confusing.  I have looked at the alternative distro's that offer something other than systemd.  To my knowledge they are:
slackware
Gentoo
Various minor or never heard of distro's

That's pretty much it.  Might there be an opportunity here to meet a need?  Again, I raise this point for discussion.  Personally I really don't know.

*My Concerns for systemd really focus on the feature creep as I have said.  As systemd pulls more and more things into it's area of control and binds itself more and more to the Gnome/RedHat type paradigm.  What will happen to the alternatives and will the current enthusiasm for alternative desk tops, login managers, loggers, etc. continue.  I worry that moving from systemd later might be painful and that alternatives that aren't supported now may actually pass on to the point there are no alternatives left.  Also that by the time everyone realizes that the depends on systemd list is so large that there is nothing that doesn't depend on it those other projects will be gone.  This though might be much ado about nothing and I would be most interested in the feelings of others not on systemd per say but on the future.  This is also the direction I have been flailing around trying to encourage.

[jedi]

Wow this thread has a life all its own!

The fact that systemd offloaded a lot of work for distro maintainers was probably the main motivation for its adoption. Distro maintainers are lazy.

I find that statement mildly offensive.  If you look back over the last couple of years, the work VastOne has put into this distro is anything but lazy.  I mean, VastOne is regularly rolling out new ISO's every 2 weeks! (yes I realize the guy is being cheeky) I do agree that in offloading much of the work, systemd seemed cool and easily used.  I suppose that should have terrified us the most in the first place.  It is a growing monster that doesn't seem to be slowing down, and if anything, growing more intrusive every day.

uselessd is still in its early stages and it is not recommended for regular use or system integration, but nonetheless, below is what we have thus far

While it made for interesting reading, and sounds like it would be great, at present there is only one dev for uselessd.  How long before he tires of the wonderful work he's done?  Then what...

To be quite fair, we advise against using GNOME altogether.

bwahahahahaha 

Any other viable sysvinit alternatives?

We mentioned nosh above, which looks like it has the most potential to be a systemd killer. It is, however, in desperate need of support and publicity.

Otherwise, plenty. “systemd or sysvinit” is a false dichotomy. We list some at http://boycottsystemd.org.

uselessd is meant to address the issue of using systemd without intrusive functionality and feature creep, with portability in mind, and coherent, conservative design principles and focus. We never expected initd to become this controversial, but ultimately it did. Getting out of this mess won’t be pleasant, but the Linux userland is known for its highly iterative and constantly evolving/recycling nature. Alternatives are bound to gain more traction, and the systemd interface replacements will likely speed up the process.

Either way, we see the whole debacle having a fate similar to HALd and devfsd, but with a stronger backlash.

Agree!  But wait, there's more!

systemd is designed to be perpetually rolling software, not all that different from a kernel in user space, as was elucidated in a 2014 GNOME Asia talk. It has no clearly defined purpose beyond that other than the vague “basic building block to make an OS from”, though vagueness is probably a feature in of itself to justify intrusive functionality. The systemd developers don’t see software as a solution, they see it as a zero-sum game. A battle after battle to be won.

The end goal appears to be the creation of what we dub a Grand Unified Linux Operating System (GULOS) and the destruction of the Linux distribution altogether beyond cosmetic changes. GnomeOS, in particular. The latter is actually a thing that GNOME aspire to accomplish.

Very succinctly said!  Last weekend is a great example of the above quote.
Thanks for the post ozi, it was a good read.  Proof that systemd is still the "elephant in the room"...

@statmonkey, great post, especially

or systemd hangs itself on it's own petard.

Truly you are a great word-smith!!!

[statmonkey]

Ahhh thank goodness I get my daily dose of the JEDI I was headed into heavy withdawl without it.

Jokes aside the comments on the actual post http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html @siralucardt pointed out are becoming interesting.  Might want to watch that over the next day or so.  Sorry I find the Reddit stuff too filled with trolls and violent over-reactions.

[VastOne]

I have found the angst that you have been pushing statmonkey...  In setting up a sysVinit ISO I removed spacefm and began the thunar install.. this clearly shows that thunar and by proxy XFCE 4 depends on and installs systemd

get thunar

Code: [Select]

The following NEW packages will be installed:
  gdisk gstreamer1.0-plugins-base gvfs gvfs-common gvfs-daemons gvfs-libs
  libgstreamer-plugins-base1.0-0 libgstreamer1.0-0 libpam-systemd
  libpoppler-glib8 libpoppler46 libsecret-1-0 libsecret-common libthunarx-2-0
  libtumbler-1-0 libudisks2-0 policykit-1 policykit-1-gnome poppler-data
  systemd-sysv thunar thunar-data thunar-volman tumbler tumbler-common udisks2
  xdg-user-dirs
If we stay with systemd in the long run this is not an issue.. BUT NOW I FEEL MY HANDS TIED and really wonder what the hell we are doing... I am not throwing my hat in any direction but all of a sudden another file manager looks real good ..

I cannot have thunar even in the vsido-welcome as it would totally change the landscape of VSIDO

statmonkey... Say whatever you want man.. please do not refrain at all.  I need opinions now more than anything..

[statmonkey]

They are working toward a unified desktop as they have stated clearly.  As I said, I don't know what more I can say that I haven't. It's a hard one.  There is pain with either choice but if I was doing it I would avoid systemd as long as I could, that is realizing that more and more things are going to be pulled into systemd as integrated and dependent and an increasing number of alternatives will need to be found.  Read that as it will be a lot of work for the community most likely and the maintainer.