Author Topic: The live installer...  (Read 6667 times)

jedi

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2013, 09:07:33 PM »
@ew, I've never tried another distro install using GPT.  My profound fanaticism for VSIDO is showing here!  The linked articles your reading regarding Trim, are over 2 years old.  The firmware for SSD's has changed drastically in those 2 years.  Also the Kernel after 2.6 has totally changed and improved in it's handling of Trim.  We are a dozen plus iterations past 2.6, and the FSTAB way of doing it has been the best I've seen.  I totally toasted an SSD drive that was manufactured in 2009 by bench mark testing it for writes/reads/deletes in the first test I ran on it.  The same bench mark tests on the mSATA SSD drive I'm currently running has withstood that same test more than 10 times in a months time.  The last 2 SSD drives I've owned, are a 256Gb LiteOn running Windows 7 Ultimate now in my wifes laptop, and in this laptop, a Mushkin Atlas 240Gb mSata SSD drive.

As I said in my first post, drives that are NEWER than 2 years old are better firmware enabled and thus support for Trim is better.  (along with the much improved Kernel support for Trim now.)

In the end, it is a matter of opinion I suppose, as to best practices.  I've been running Debian based distro's for the last couple of years, including Ubuntu and #!.  However, my sojourn into the UEFI/GPT world just started, and I'm willing to learn!  My failures with GPT are in my opinion based on the fact that I don't know how to correctly set it up in the BIOS to use the EFI method of booting in UEFI mode, which is the only way currently to utilize GPT.  Legacy BIOS will not support GPT I've been told...  I also know that GPT see's ONLY Primary partitions.  (Up to 128 bootable Primary partitions, which is where my fascination lies)

The issue on the LiveCD installer with VSIDO is most probably an issue with the Remastersys installer as VastOne said.  He is currently talking with the developer of Remastersys to try to get some changes made.  Most notably the ability to install without having a Swap partition.

I'd love to hear how you setup the EFI bootstrapping in BIOS to enable UEFI to boot Linux using a GPT formatted disc!
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ew

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2013, 10:00:07 PM »
Yes the VSIDO installer sucks in some ways, other people say it's the best they have ever seen... I do know it is by far the fastest I have ever seen

I am wondering if what makes it work in #! and in Ubuntu and other distros is an application that is installed that is missing in VSIDO... This could very well be the cause

OTOH, I am disturbed by some recent developments with remastersys and it's code and do have another installer that I can use.  It is the LMDE installer and once I get the LMDE branding removed from it and replace it with VSIDO, I can use it along with the same installer we have now for people to test
Okidoki. I will try to find a way to install it anyway. I lost my internet connection last night, my isp obviously had some new firmware to force on me, that completely messed up my network. I`ve just recovered my network, so I haven`t been able to do any debugging yet. I will try to find the cause of my issue now... And as for the VSIDO installer, it`s very easy, and many people might like that. But I`m of those that like to have a lot of options available to me, and I don`t mind that the installer is so advanced that the common man isn`t able to get trough it. If you manage the Debian netinstall, then you manage all installers. I doubt that anyone that is trying VSIDO, is looking for something easy. Those people are over at Ubuntu or Linux Mint. That`s just as easy as Windows, but we generally don`t like the removing of options to make it easier for those that do not know what they are doing:)
-ew
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ew

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2013, 10:21:32 PM »
@ew, I've never tried another distro install using GPT.  My profound fanaticism for VSIDO is showing here!  The linked articles your reading regarding Trim, are over 2 years old.  The firmware for SSD's has changed drastically in those 2 years.  Also the Kernel after 2.6 has totally changed and improved in it's handling of Trim.  We are a dozen plus iterations past 2.6, and the FSTAB way of doing it has been the best I've seen.  I totally toasted an SSD drive that was manufactured in 2009 by bench mark testing it for writes/reads/deletes in the first test I ran on it.  The same bench mark tests on the mSATA SSD drive I'm currently running has withstood that same test more than 10 times in a months time.  The last 2 SSD drives I've owned, are a 256Gb LiteOn running Windows 7 Ultimate now in my wifes laptop, and in this laptop, a Mushkin Atlas 240Gb mSata SSD drive.

As I said in my first post, drives that are NEWER than 2 years old are better firmware enabled and thus support for Trim is better.  (along with the much improved Kernel support for Trim now.)

In the end, it is a matter of opinion I suppose, as to best practices.  I've been running Debian based distro's for the last couple of years, including Ubuntu and #!.  However, my sojourn into the UEFI/GPT world just started, and I'm willing to learn!  My failures with GPT are in my opinion based on the fact that I don't know how to correctly set it up in the BIOS to use the EFI method of booting in UEFI mode, which is the only way currently to utilize GPT.  Legacy BIOS will not support GPT I've been told...  I also know that GPT see's ONLY Primary partitions.  (Up to 128 bootable Primary partitions, which is where my fascination lies)

The issue on the LiveCD installer with VSIDO is most probably an issue with the Remastersys installer as VastOne said.  He is currently talking with the developer of Remastersys to try to get some changes made.  Most notably the ability to install without having a Swap partition.

I'd love to hear how you setup the EFI bootstrapping in BIOS to enable UEFI to boot Linux using a GPT formatted disc!

You probably are correct about trim and that stuff. I just do it with fstrim, because my setup isn`t permanent yet. I don`t know which partitions and which distros I will end up wit yet. Therefore I`m focusing on more pressing issues, and not engaging in the ultimate tweaking yet.

But as for SSD and swap, it`s not just the frequent writes that are a issue, it`s also the fact that ssd`s tend to be smaller, and the space is more limited. Therefore, with 8 GB RAM, it`s totally meaningless to use space for a swap partitions that actually never will be used. I manage fine with 2 GB and no swap. With 8 GB there isn`t even a questionmark. Swap is not needed. Also, with SSD I`m cold-booting in 10 seconds, and therefore never use hibernation. I turn the laptop off.

As for EFI, bootstrapping and all that. I don`t mess with it at all. Ubuntu does it right out of the box. If you install Ubuntu first, it`s easy. Boot the installation-media in uefi-mode, create a 200 mb EFI-partition, a root partition, and other partitions you want, just leave the grub choice as the default choice is, because regardless of your choice, Ubuntu will place it`s bootloader in efi, and you will be able to uefi-boot withoiut setting up anything at all. Ubuntu is also able to handle uefi secure boot, right out of the box.

Read this page(it`s very easy): https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UEFI

If you first have installed Ubuntu in uefi-mode and the ubuntu-bootloader is present in efi, then it`s just to install other distros as you always done, don`t think about efi or anything else. Create a root-partition, and the partition you want, let grub be installed to the root-partition. When installed. Boot Ubuntu, run sudo update-grub, and Ubuntu will add an entry for the other distros in the Ubuntu bootloader. Forget all the advanced stuff about efistub, efivars an all that, Ubuntu handles everything. All you need to do, is to create a EFI-partition. Thats it.
-ew
-----------------------------
 "What happens when you read some doc and either it doesn't answer your question or is demonstrably wrong? In Linux, you say "Linux sucks" and go read the code. In Windows/Oracle/etc you say "Windows sucks" and start banging your head against the wall."
--- Denis Vlasenko on lkml

ew

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2013, 10:54:17 PM »
I`m replying to myself, as this will solve me a lot of debugging and work that is doomed to fail.

http://www.remastersys.com/forums/index.php?action=printpage;topic=2612.0

"Title: Re: Remastersys EFI version
Post by: fragadelic on September 14, 2012, 10:25:15 PM
At this time I have no plans to do anything with EFI and will wait to see what happens.  I have no efi enabled computers nor do I plan on getting any.

If debian mainline or ubuntu go efi then I will need to look at it.  At this time there is no need and I don't have time to support yet another version or 2 of remastersys for these rare cases(for now).

I also have no plans on purchasing a valid key and letting everyone and their uncle have it and reuse it.  I don't know much about efi as there has been no need for it but I will say for sure that if a time comes when you have to have a purchased registered efi key or whatever, then remastersys will no longer be developed and it will be legal reasons stopping it."

I guess that this means that it will be no vsidoing for me on my ssd, but I can install it on an external disk and boot that one in bios-mode. But I don`t want to take my two other installs back to the past, to be able to install VSIDO.

I really like VSIDO, but no gpt is a dealbreaker for me. Now it`s GPT and EFI that sets the standard. MBR and bios-mode is of the past. More and more new pc`s are not able to bios-boot at all. Clinging on to this old structure, is a lost struggle. GPT has been here a long time, and EFI is also starting to be the new default. Any system that requires mbr and bios-mode, is a system of the past. Regardless of how cutting-edge everything else might be.

Well, it`s been a while since I tried bbq. I`ll have to fill the space I cleared for VSIDO, and I have 3 alternatives, Arch, Gentoo and bbq. I think I choose the easiest one... But I will head back to VSIDO when and if Remastersys fully supports efi and gpt, or when VSIDO has choosed something else than Remastersys:)
-ew
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 "What happens when you read some doc and either it doesn't answer your question or is demonstrably wrong? In Linux, you say "Linux sucks" and go read the code. In Windows/Oracle/etc you say "Windows sucks" and start banging your head against the wall."
--- Denis Vlasenko on lkml

jedi

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2013, 11:38:44 PM »
I personally wouldn't install Ubuntu for any reason, much less to make something easier.  I'm not running secure servers for the National Security Agency here on my home machines, and have no use for UEFI other than mild curiosity because it's new, and MS is insistent on it!

The only benefit to the home user is, well, I don't see any!

GPT supports up to 18Eb's (exabytes) which is one benefit sure.  MBR is limited to 2Tb per partition.  Perhaps in the future, when I need such vast amounts of space, I'll reconsider.

The hard part about GPT for me to swallow, is Microsoft adopted the GPT disk partitioning scheme in 2001 from Intel’s EFI (Extensible Firmware Interface) specifications.  They did this with the sole intention of making it harder and harder for other OS's (i.e. Linux in particular) to be installed on Windows certified hardware.

MBR will not be going away anytime soon. Its been with us since the early '80's, whereas UEFI is a babe in the woods.  We hadn't seen it's wide spread use before the last 6 months!  GPT has only been around and usable to the home user for a little over a decade.  UEFI was 'supposed' to be a way for Windows to be "secure" from the boot up.  Windows!  ugh...

VSIDO runs very fast on my SSD, (apprx 10 second boot times) without GPT, and I don't see that as a shortcoming.  If your sole reasoning for not installing VSIDO, is GPT, well thats your call obviously.  GPT is there to make Microsoft happy and thats enough for me to not try that hard to get it working...

As to UEFI, there are already several "Class Action Lawsuits" pending against Microsoft for their handling of the UEFI situation, and their collusion with the hardware manufacturers to preclude the use of any other OS while UEFI is enabled.  Sure there are workarounds, but why bother when the tried and true ways are still working and completely viable?  Just because something is new, doesn't mean it's the "best", or "advised" way to go.
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jedi

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2013, 11:52:12 PM »
Oh yeah, the Swap thing; I have 16Gb of RAM, and as I mentioned my Swap is setup to intentionally "Test" the hibernation ability in Linux.

I haven't seen a need for Swap for a couple of years now.  With the amounts of RAM that ship with new computers Swap is pointless and wasted space.  Especially on an SSD drive.  If you need a Swap partition, why in the world would you buy an SSD drive?

Oh, and never, ever, ever, defragment an SSD drive!  Fastest way to toast one ever!
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ew

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2013, 01:48:06 AM »
I`m sorry Jedi. You are clearly not updated. That ship has sailed. The big ones like Ubuntu and Fedora has already swollowed that camel, and are on board with gpt, efi and even secure boot. Even pc-distributors like Lenovo is producing pc`s with pure efi-bioses, and for most of them it is possible to disable secure boot, and some of them adds legacy support as a secondary option, but in a few years, nobody will produce pc`s with a ordinary bios, and the legacy support will disappear. You might as well swollow your pride. This is a lost cause. Anyway, I just installed linuxbbq, which had no issues with either gpt or efi. Installed perfect. If you want to do it the oldfashioned way, thats fine, but then this is no place for me, because I want to take part in the future, not row a sinking boat...

 Arch, Gentoo, Fedora, Debian, and you name it, they are all embracing gpt and efi, and the only reason that It doesn`t work in VSIDO, is that the developer behind remastersys still lives in the past.

Can ssd work fast and fine with MBR? Yes, of course. I`ve done it myself because I knew that it would make distro-hopping a bit easier. But that`s beyond the point. Now I`m settling for a few installs on my ssd, and then I don`t take the other installs back to the past, because remastersys has decided to stay behind...

Besides, you are totally forgetting that people are dualbooting Linux with Windows. Very few are pure linux-users, and Windows 8 makes gpt and uefi the only option. Any distro has to be able to coexist with the latest Windows-edition. Or it will alianate anyone that do a little gaming now and then...

Anyway, I`m not going to hazzle you any more. I`ve moved on to BBQ, which supports my preference in this regard. I guess that`s why linux is so nice. There is always an option to use something that`s more suited for each and everyone of us. Now I`m leaving the building, and won`t be bothering you any more...
-ew
-----------------------------
 "What happens when you read some doc and either it doesn't answer your question or is demonstrably wrong? In Linux, you say "Linux sucks" and go read the code. In Windows/Oracle/etc you say "Windows sucks" and start banging your head against the wall."
--- Denis Vlasenko on lkml

VastOne

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Re: The live installer...
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2013, 02:12:02 AM »
Thanks for your time here ew.  The focal point of foss is different ways and approaches to anything.  I appreciate your passion and I will resolve this and find out what the differences is.  I am positive it is nothing more than a piece of code that is not yet installed.

I do not understand the need to make this a battle of distros or a battle of wits between users.  Both you and jedi have done a fantastic job educating me and others on your experiences. 

I wish you nothing but the best

VastOne
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