Looks like a great deal of systemd stuff and also some backend changes to lightdm haven't rebooted yet but the upgrade went well at least.  I threw systemd back on this afternoon after I got your email.  Went very smooth.  I had no issues with runit though, it worked very well.

Great news.  For what it is worth I am getting a huge update list including all the libqt stuff, udev, python, pam, gvfs, etc. right now on update.  It seems a lot going on out there.

Hmmm need to get up to date on my apt-fu thanks VastOne

Doesn't apt-cache depends do that?

They are working toward a unified desktop as they have stated clearly.  As I said, I don't know what more I can say that I haven't. It's a hard one.  There is pain with either choice but if I was doing it I would avoid systemd as long as I could, that is realizing that more and more things are going to be pulled into systemd as integrated and dependent and an increasing number of alternatives will need to be found.  Read that as it will be a lot of work for the community most likely and the maintainer.

Ahhh thank goodness I get my daily dose of the JEDI I was headed into heavy withdawl without it.

Jokes aside the comments on the actual post http://judecnelson.blogspot.fi/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html @siralucardt pointed out are becoming interesting.  Might want to watch that over the next day or so.  Sorry I find the Reddit stuff too filled with trolls and violent over-reactions.

Quote from: ozitraveller on September 30, 2014, 12:00:49 AM
Just thought I would throw this into the mix.

http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/

LOL, that was a very fun read, entertaining even.   Sorry that last response of mine was dashed off and I should have just let it go.  I didn't think you meant it that way at all.  If anyone is meant to make a final decision it's VastOne.   

I probably have been needlessly opaque.    I really believe that at least until the dust settles* that systemd is the way to go.  I remain very concerned about feature creep and all the other stuff we have discussed in here but I also believe that should users have the "sophistication (for lack of a better word)" to care about what their init system is then they probably have the skills to swap out systemd for whatever they want to use.  I installed runit as a test of my theory since there was some down time between VSIDO builds and I am intending to do a complete reinstall soon anyway.  I found it relatively easy and it works fine from what I can see.

So to be clear I vote for staying with systemd until something better shows itself or systemd hangs itself on it's own petard.

Now to be confusing.  I have looked at the alternative distro's that offer something other than systemd.  To my knowledge they are:
slackware
Gentoo
Various minor or never heard of distro's

That's pretty much it.  Might there be an opportunity here to meet a need?  Again, I raise this point for discussion.  Personally I really don't know.

*My Concerns for systemd really focus on the feature creep as I have said.  As systemd pulls more and more things into it's area of control and binds itself more and more to the Gnome/RedHat type paradigm.  What will happen to the alternatives and will the current enthusiasm for alternative desk tops, login managers, loggers, etc. continue.  I worry that moving from systemd later might be painful and that alternatives that aren't supported now may actually pass on to the point there are no alternatives left.  Also that by the time everyone realizes that the depends on systemd list is so large that there is nothing that doesn't depend on it those other projects will be gone.  This though might be much ado about nothing and I would be most interested in the feelings of others not on systemd per say but on the future.  This is also the direction I have been flailing around trying to encourage.

No interest in forcing anything on anyone, after all this is just an init system.  Or is it?  I really feel like a turd but I have to go to a meeting right now.  I will use the meeting to pull my thoughts together and respond properly.  My apologies if my comment stirred up another mess.  Not my intention.

I think this article brings us full circle.  Somewhere last year we debated a similar article and if I remember we also went through a Lennart posting where he defended himself against what he called "fraudulent attacks".  Thank you siralucardt for the post.  I want to point out two things that relate to things we are discussing currently.  One directly addresses something I am trying to drive home with the discussions of udevil/polkit/spacefm:

QuoteYou used to be able to run logind separately but not anymore, and udev will likely be next to hard-depend on systemd.

This is something to keep in your mind for future app inclusion.  I also don't think the "absorption" of login is completed yet.

The other being:

QuoteThe burden of proof is on you to show how many people use systemd because they explicitly want systemd, versus how many people use it because their distro mandated its adoption, or their workplace mandated its adoption, or they need to use something that hard-depends on it.

As I mentioned I have been using runit and surviving pretty well thank you.  I sort of half-arsed it but it works and I am learning.  I don't think there is anything new in those links both the for and against are the same as it ever was.  I remain convinced that systemd is "Ice nine" and I will take the advice of Bokonon and follow in John's footsteps, thumb ready, book of human stupidity at my side and a string for playing Cat's Cradle.  I joke, I joke.

Yes, I believed I mentioned a snail moving across the edge of a razor blade before.  It is a bit Gordian, in the knot sense.  I think you go with what is not well received and rely on the community to do it's magic.  I know of several people who are looking at the udevil stuff as well as some other alternatives and think once things settle something will "turn" up.  PolKit  what a disaster imho.  I think polkit is going to mature but for now it's not what it should be.

Quote from: VastOne on September 29, 2014, 03:03:15 PM

Quote from: ozitraveller on September 29, 2014, 06:04:54 AM
'udevil' is currently unsupported, isn't it? Is there an alternative?

Just curious.

hehe .. just curious my a**

That is a very good question Ozi... I think of udevil as more of a static or config type application and see it as less of an issue as spacefm... of course I could be dead wrong.  And yes there are alternatives already installed that have been in place long before udevil .. udisks2 and gvfs

Already mentioned this elsewhere but I really would advise against udevil.  I think what ozi meant was are there not efficient/elegant alternatives to udevil ... that would preclude udisks2 and gvfs   The answer would be (to the best of my knowledge NO).

That is beyond cool.  Semplice is a nice package, really well put together.  I actually have my Mother using it, can't be too bad if it's usable for an 86 year old.  I also found the people over there very helpful.

@VastOne

QuoteCode: [Select]

sudo medit /usr/share/pyshared/DiskManager.py


and remove this line

Code: [Select]

gtk.gdk.threads_init()

Works great.  FYI curiously on my system its in /usr/share/pyshared/DiskManager/DiskManager.py

May have to reinstall SpaceFM and see if I can find anything.

Awesome job as always!

But not today, just peeking in here between races to see what is new.

I am pretty nervous about slim.  I hadn't seen the stuff in arch will look at that.  I don't have a problem working something up and creating a deb out of it assuming I am not re-inventing the wheel (from a time perspective).  Having our own deb has the obvious advantage of our code/our tweaks/and all that good stuff.  I will also peek at what you have posted here PackRat all good stuff.  I looked at MDM and rejected that option for the reasons discussed (at least rejected it for my purposes).  Also I used to have the lightdm code somewhere I can look at tomorrow.  I think working something up would not be a huge deal.  I was planning on re-writing makethumb code this weekend since the glib stuff has made the zenity part of it look very dirty.  I can have a look at this stuff then as well.

[sigh] As always PackRat comes in for the win!  Good comments and just to be verbose and flog a dead horse ...

Quote from: VastOne on September 27, 2014, 04:58:11 AM
I am just going to quote the first line of this and leave it to you all to read the tutorial...

Like it or not, systemd is here to stay, so we might as well know what to do with it

Understanding and Using Systemd

It is not meant to raise the ire of anyone any higher but to educate...

Great or not so great minds work alike.  I was going to quote the same line and yes, sadly it is the only thing in that post worth reading.  I am still looking for something on systemd that is recent enough and detailed enough to give me a better understanding.  Since the initial wave of posts and frankly my initial playing with it, it has changed a great deal.

Quote from: jeffreyC on September 27, 2014, 06:49:56 AM

45 • Some quotes about systemd (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-26 04:07:08 GMT from United States)
Poettering:
"it unifies system objects and their dependencies"
"One goal of systemd is to unify the dispersed Linux landscape"
"trying to gently push everybody towards the same set of basic configuration"
"we'd like to unify the most boring bits where there's really no point at all in being different"

This is what I am talking about when I suggest that systemd has something to do with the structural/configuration changes of things like lightdm.  I do think that an effort is going to be made to force developers/coders/etc to conform to a set of rules and if they don't conform their crap just won't work. 

Call it a line in the sand, call it progress, call it whatever.  Look these are not random changes, I think I get it.  I know my frustrations with certain maintainers and dev's (I only wish one of them could read so they would know I was talking about them) who when they build a package decide that they would like the user config files in /opt and not in /usr/share/ or even completely outside the /usr file structure.  How many times have you had to waste an hour or two looking for where a package could be adjusted/config'd/started from (dropbox anyone?). 

The problem is that in the open source community there are a great many brilliant people, they all have ideas of what the best practices are and because there are no rules they all use their own rules and fervently believe that their rules should be THE rules.  This is of course chaos.  But with android and it's SDK the google gnomes have shown that you can still be open source and have a set of rules and people will work within those and it will be more orderly and less chaotic.  Yes, yes I know we have long had our cake and been able to eat it too but I believe that some degree of order will make Linux more not less usable.  Regardless, arguments for and against are moot this is happening. Don't shoot me I am just saying what I see, not what I agree with.  Systemd is going to be used to do away with the "Ministry of Silly Walks" and random attacks by guys with banana's.  I think we are seeing the first shots across the bow.  Systemd is just not going to "see" the configuration files of your app unless it is sitting somewhere in a defined range of locations and conforms to certain rules.  It just won't start your service and in the future if you want to be in you are going to have to meet those rules.  But they are not going to be dictatorial enough to tell you that, you can still get your stuff to work, it will still install it just will loose (for now) flexibility for the user if you are not playing by the rules.  Once people get on board and they have some momentum I think they will lay the rules out clearly and with finality.  Politically they have just pissed too many people off and they are treading lightly (well sort of

That is my theory anyway.

As PackRat says it could lead to a lot of tail chasing but for me I really want to understand systemd and that is the direction I am headed because like it or not it is here.

But it's a lovely day, there are killer races at Belmont all day long and I think I'll let the dust settle, relax and enjoy a super Saturday.  Especially after having this brain fart out of the way.  If things settle down a little more in the Debian world while I am at it so much the better.