Lest you think I am crazy and paranoid (ok, I am) watching some of the structures of the programs change I had theorized that the developers of systemd were going to bring the file structure of Linux into compliance by in essence making that part of systemd's responsibilities.   I mentioned in the LightDM fiasco that part of that was due to systemd but didn't verbalize it very well.  I think this post http://0pointer.net/blog/projects/stateless.html by Lennart explains better what I was talking about. 

For those who don't want to go through the effort I'll summarize it and why it impacts you. (MY take and could be only of interest to me, I realize - caveat emptor)

The basic concept begins with the idea that devices are for the most part just that, devices.  That system file structure at it's core should be the same whether its a phone, tablet, desktop, watch and that Linux is an appliance OS. The file system should also be simple and transferable. Given that is accepted then there are certain goals including but not limited to:

Having a set file tree that centralizes the downstream and upstream essential files into one folder, creating a simpler more centralized file system.
Creating the ability to have a fresh install/environment on reboot or even live on the fly
Giving distro's and users the ability to recreate and duplicate their setups over an unlimited framework as userless with a known core set of standard admin/system users replicated with the system. 
By configuring a standardized setup like this it makes it easier for developers/upstream and down to work across all systems of a given OS without having to work around crazy variances and making installs/upgrades/customizations easier to implement.


So, how does this potentially affect you?  For now I would suspect that you will begin to notice that some developers for apps that are closely tied to RH/Fedora will be moving things around and this will affect customizations where you are not following the maintainer's structure in the strict sense.  Over the long term if it is successful it will mean a much more regimented file tree overall. This will affect permissions, how things are called on startup, the state or environment that is expected, how you script and where you place your "user" files and how you call stuff you want.

There is really no reason for me to parrot all that Lennart has said and he lays it out relatively clearly, if you have further interest I would suggest reading the link.  Personally, I hope this is something that gets followed through on, this has long been a pet peeve of mine.  So, I would put this in the plus column for systemd.  I really recommend reading it, it's pretty high level and there is a lot I have glossed over.  I just thought it was worth pointing out.

What?  Google has a search feature?? Who knew

I Really enjoyed that Linus interview thank you Jedi.  Probably would not have taken the time without you posting it.  I am reading the Lennart file system one now and holding my breath.  I do disagree with a few of Linus' comments on systemd (the horror!) but overall interesting.  I can't say it changed my outlook, just interesting.

The Lennart article is on packaging, filesystems, etc and is here: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html if anyone is interested

Very nice!  STOP though.  I keep saying I am going to reinstall and you keep putting great stuff in ... where will it all end?  No, seriously thanks for all these special little touches.  Really looking forward to rebuilding my box.

Thank you Guru.  Absolutely riveting stuff.  I never knew about include and playing with it as we speak.  I do a lot of pipemenu stuff with openbox.

I am assuming (maybe incorrectly) that you are talking about using alias in Dmenu or is there something else (OK realize there are mountains of things) I don't know about?  Do you do it this way.  I love me some dmenu if I am missing something I don't want that to happen.

Very nice PackRat.  I may have to go back to fluxbox.  I should probably look by myself does fluxbox have anything similar to pipemenus?

Nobody pushed me into thinking anything.  I thought about what I wrote yesterday and realized the futility of it, then commented on what I had come to realize, I just will try to do better.  You are either a part of the solution or the problem and whining over the results does not add value.  I don't want to be a source of discord in this community or a pot stirrer.

I am being completely sincere - questioning everything is good!  Your questions regarding where this came from and whether it even has relevance is good.  I have not searched for the context of the email because I just don't think there is any point.  I do however believe that it is not a surprise and is exactly what they have already said they would do (throwing out the conspiratorial plot to infiltrate debian with redhat goons), that once you go systemd that is it there is no going back.  I believe that the upstart people said exactly the same thing about their system.

You have nothing to apologize for.  Moving on.

It's always good to question everything.  That said, I apologize for my comments, they serve no purpose other than my own venting.  If we are going to look for a smoking gun on the intentions of the systemd crowd that is going to be a long search.  In the end all that really matters is research was done, pluses and minuses laid out and a decision made.  It was the right decision.  I don't think it is realistic to think that you can have a debian sid distro that uses anything other than systemd. 

Sometimes you have to just pick yourself up off the ground, wipe your mouth and walk away.  In this particular case I think getting and continuing to follow new information is good, it just is unnecessary for there to be cheerleading/grave dancing like I did, even if it is unintentional.  This is a systemd distro and I heartily accept that.  I will do a better job of keeping my I told you so's and TD celebrations to myself. 

There is a lot of fud and emotions are running high for all the reasons we have discussed. Lennart has said several times that he did not think there could be a compromise on what systemd's functions and processes it got involved in were, nor did he think there could really be alternatives once started on the systemd path. IIRC his reasoning was that systemd was so far along and so tightly integrated to several parts of debian that he did not think that would allow a parallel alternative system that would long term work for debian.  He also said that people were welcome to try but in the end it would be a waste of time.  I am not sure where that was but I believe it was in one of the conference videos when the subject of dual development came up and also in one of the reddit threads he started.  It makes some sense if you look at how systemd works and all that it pulls in/we have seen changes in depends already and I don't think that any of this is a surprise.  Again, I am only mentioning this in an effort to clear fact from fiction.  In the end the decision is what matters and you move forward.

Hmm that driver/card issue makes little sense to me.  I am wondering what the original message was.  I assume you are using the Nvidia drivers?  If so I may as well pass this off to VastOne.  I don't use Nvidia drivers at all and no little to nothing about systemd hands on.  Sorry, I will keep thinking about this and watch the thread. 

The repeating lines in your logs are just the repetitions on each boot up.  One set for each time the system comes up. 

VastOne is probably heading you in the right direction with the hint towards the card that was removed.  I am just concerned that there is something pre-existing (whatever caused it to say your old card was outdated).  Not something I think you should ever see. JMTC

Quote from: jeffreyC on October 09, 2014, 05:33:57 PM
More reason to suspect their motives:

https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/10/7/254

Political/corporate takeover tactics in open source?

Gosh, I wish I found this surprising or shocking.

 

QuoteWe knew that would happen. Accommodations are only a temporary
stratagem with the systemd people. They are out to conquer.

Yep, we have been discussing that in here for months. 

Thanks for the post btw

There should still be a number of files you can check in the folder /var/log that should give you the information.  These would include syslog, messages, dmesg.  There might be something in user.log and debug as well.  A little hard to understand what your graphics card issue would be, it's strange that a kernel upgrade would obsolete a working graphics card no matter how aged.

Quote from: PackRat on October 06, 2014, 01:59:20 AM
Wife snapped my rod in half the other day (one of has to watch the youngest while the other fishes), and my oldest broke the tip off another one - which I could fix. I am going to have to give a seminar on "What to do when you get hung up on snags/rocks" .

Sorry to butt in but this made me rofl.  If you are successful with your training let me know I have an 86 year old father and 25 year old daughter that have many years of training and very little in learning ... but they love to fish and I won't discourage them.  One of the few things my Pop still really enjoys.  If you can videotape that "seminar" bet you could sell a few thousand copies!   Great pics and even though I am not doing much fishing these days am vicariously enjoying the stories.

Wow, that is impressive.  My fishing is limited to the tank in front of my favorite restaurant on Phuket.

Yep, just added back spacefm, ran an upgrade and ... we are back.  Giddy at having it again, it's like seeing an old high school friend. 

Also another big load of additions in the upgrade as well as an apps to remove list about a mile long. 

Really great work on pushing along this spacefm fix VastOne.  If the udev2 stuff in it repaired we are far ahead of the game.

Quote from: VastOne on October 01, 2014, 09:47:39 PM
Of course as soon as I build / test and upload the new ISO's that have spacefm-gtk3 on them, the bug report comes back from Debian that spaceFM has been patched and is in the FTP process ... expect an upgrade from SID tonight or tomorrow for the latest and patched version of spaceFM

I want to thank everyone involved in this think tank approach to solving several issues in the FOSS kingdom...

LightDM has been corrected as well (a work around) and is working fine on the latest ISO's

I will release new ISO's with spaceFM proper on them on the next ISO cycle.. 2 weeks or a new SID kernel..

Things seem to be settling down...

Great job VastOne, this has been a brutal couple of weeks but the effort has been stellar as always.  I'll grab the new stuff tonight and see how it flies.  I really am actually enjoying some parts of thunar.  Having both is not a bad thing.   Thanks also for fixing my post to zephyr.  I couldn't of fixed it had I not been on the road since I was just reposting what  you had written and had no idea how to use it.  LOL. 

Quote from: zephyr on October 01, 2014, 05:52:11 AM
SpaceFM was excellent, and until a few seconds ago unaware other than it didn't work, it being not available makes a lot of sense. I use PCManFM with #!, along with Thunar. I would say it would be my choice. I added both of these to VSIDO. If anyone could help me why Radiotray doesn't work either, appreciate a yell back.

Radio tray doesn't work because of the mutex bug.  A few posts back VastOne was kind enough to post a fix that will repair it. 

QuoteFor radiotray (not in VSIDO but I will include it here)

Code: [Select]

sudo medit /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/radiotray/SysTray.py


and remove this line

Code: [Select]

gtk.gdk.threads_init()

For the spaceFM thing.  For me if it moves forward great but I too am ready to move on with Thunar it works well with systemd and is built to take advantage of it.

I think that lightdm is probably going to be fine as well.  Once it stables up I am going to look at forking it or possibly working out my own solution using either the C program I started writing or looking deeper into the run level issues with PackRat's solution.  This (the getting in and out of X issue are known problems but I think I may know how to overcome them).  I'll have a lot, lot more time after this evening to dedicate to them. 

Since we are heading down the systemd road that final decision alone makes moving forward a bit easier, knowing the parameters to work in makes it much simpler to divide out the issues and work on them. 

That said, there is a lot of in and out right now in the Debian world, this tends to go in fits and starts.  Right now we are in fit mode.  It will settle over the next few days.  VO has this thing on the run and I am ready to support that 100%.  I am finding a few more issues now, the udev2 stuff seems to be in real flux and it's hard to do much on that low level until it settles down.