VSIDO Community

VSIDO Controls => VSIDO Discussions => Topic started by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 02:26:32 PM

Title: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 02:26:32 PM
I am contemplating the following and would like your feedback...

Xfce 4.10 gone

FluxBox as Primary, with OB installed but not much emphasis on it ... It remains static so that is a given.  My objective would be to have VSIDO as the ultimate FluxBox distro

Move back to debians stable kernel 3.2.0.4  I have noticed incredible memory usage from the newer kernels and I think trying to stay bleeding edge in that context is dangerous... the 3.2.0.4 kernel is solid and works with VSIDO's smxi stub... and in all reality, for those of us who want a newer kernel, smxi is the optimal tool

Move to pulseaudio... It has grown up and the amount of tools it has vs the space it takes up is a hands down decision... It does not replace alsa, but augments it

The nexus of this is a more focused VSIDO future and a smaller footprint on the ISO's... The new test ISO is a full 100 MiB smaller (617MiB) than what is available now (717Mib)

Please chime in and let me know what you think...

I appreciate it
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 10, 2013, 02:36:26 PM
Drop openbox, just go with fluxbox.

Will you be removing all of Xfce (thunar, terminal, mixer, etc ..)?

I'm really starting to like spacefm, the xfce terminal and mixer are good apps though.

Maybe remove some other apps as well - medit is default editor (your fav, I believe) so geany doesn't need to be included, unload a couple gnome dependencies as well.

Given the thread about issues with Umplayer and CD's, maybe swap that out as well.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 02:40:52 PM
Not all of xfce will be removed... The terminal will stay and the notifier, but both of those are independent of Xfce proper, so it is easy...  The mixer is gone because it requires a near full install of Xfce to use it , but with Pulseaudio you get one hell of a mixer replacement

I forgot to list Geany as removed also.. thanks

Any suggestions on gnome dependencies?  I have tried to remove them... this is not a scale down of the original build, but a completely new build... I was able to be very selective in the apps based on what I wanted and what is known

Thanks!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 02:42:48 PM
As far as UMplayer and CD's, I think it is a huge stretch to remove a quality app because Debian does not see a cd as a file system and it is not built into UMPlayer... just for cd's

I never thought to look at UMplayer plugins as a fix, there may be some
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 02:48:03 PM
Thunar, the xfce-panel and mixer can be added to the vsido-welcome ... as a matter of fact, thunar and the panel are already there so adding the mixer would be easy

I am leaning towards dropping OpenBox as well
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 03:03:43 PM
Regarding the kernel, the latest is Sid is 3.10.2 and appears stable... Over this week of testing I will verify that
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: surio on September 10, 2013, 03:25:18 PM
Well, I am a #! IRC regular. I help out in whatever way that I can in that room, and based my own personal experience as well as fielding ad-hoc support requests,  kernel 3.2.0.4 is getting a bit long in the tooth, and the stable libraries are getting stale, even for die hard #!-ers as well as debian stable proponents.

I bit the bullet and jumped ship to VSIDO from #! because of the library dependencies lagging behind for every application, and big problems with wifi (broadcom) with the stable kernel. Ubuntu, which uses testing version, did not suffer these issues, and so I knew moving to unstable is just one more necessary step for my config. Basically, Broadcom will be a big bug bear with 3.2 and your IRC/forums support overhead will go up disproportionately to the momory savings ;)  I have rarely, if ever, noticed increased memory consumption as an overhead in my time spent with vsido (it is my no.1 go to debian session these days), and frankly it has proven to be so good, I've not logged into a #! session in months. The last time I did log into #!, I installed smxi and upgraded to 3.10.2 aptosid kernel. It was not easy, as I had to upgrade many libs/apps to unstable in order to bring the kernel forward, but since my #! upgrade, #! never had wifi dropping every 5 mins on me. All my ubuntu spins now sport 3.8+ kernels, and work smashingly well on my config. 

The gist of all this is that, I hadn't noticed a spike in memory in my constant VSIDO usage over the last 5 months or so. On the other hand, the newer kernels and libs have been so good in playing with my hardware and providing me with good service (which debian stable kernel and libs did not), I have upgraded all my other debians to unstable repos! Ha.

@Vastone, out of interest, by what proportion has the newer kernels increased the memory consumption?

Re: XFCE, I only use a few aspects of XFCE, the ones you mention anyway. If someone wants to go full XFCE, there's always siduction or aptosid XFCE isos...

Re: Openbox, please don't remove it completely. I do log into OB regularly and find it just as nimble as fluxbox.

If it is not too much trouble for you, please run this "small and stable ISO" separately to the regular ISOs that you roll out. The SID in VSIDO stands for sid -- debian unstable (I hope), and personally, I would prefer to have a sid based vsido humming on my machine -- willing to live with the additional memory usage trade off. Because the alternative (for me at least) is constant fiddling with wifi and other things to make it work (which I am frankly fed up of)

Re: geany isn't too bad, and as such I would advice against removing it. I use geany:medit 50:50. They are tools for different occasions.

Re: GNOME dependencies, I've installed a few additional apps on my VSIDO after installation (Vim and some image app), and your GNOME dependencies have saved the day for me, in keeping my download sizes and download times much more manageable. It is a one time overhead for people with poor net connections to download a somewhat larger ISO, but have the dependencies as a "future-proofing" for future.

Let me know what you think of these points I made. If I recall anything, I'll drop by again.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 10, 2013, 03:28:50 PM
Sorry, what I meant was that I think geany has a couple of gnome/gtk dependencies that medit does not require, so removing geany removes them as well.

Just looking through the default menu, there doesn't appear to be any gnome apps that would have dependencies; just the usual gtk apps and a couple qt apps.

the 3.10.2 kernel is stable on both my desktop (testing) and laptop (VSIDO). Runs a bit hot on my laptop (HP).
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 03:39:04 PM
I think keeping with the SID kernel is the way to go as surio pointed out, there are too many issues with the older kernel.. thanks for that surio

OB is so tiny as to not really matter keeping it or not... but by being a FluxBox only distro has certain advantages

As far as what I am seeing with the kernels is after each Liquorix update there are bumps or reductions on each app I run... it is just inconsistent and bothersome for me.. not really a major problem but one that frustrates me as the kernels seem to destabilize too much

I will not maintain two different ISO builds... that is too much to bite off and chew

@surio, thanks for the excellent feedback

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: surio on September 10, 2013, 04:30:10 PM
I think keeping with the SID kernel is the way to go <snip>

OB is so tiny as to not really matter keeping it or not... but by being a FluxBox only distro has certain advantages

I will not maintain two different ISO builds... that is too much to bite off and chew

@VastOne,
I knew 2 separate ISOs is overkill, but OTOH, if we're going to remain up-to-date/sid based all the way, then I'm one happy chappie.  :)

I've grown to like openbox and do use fluxbox distros as well (salix and antiX). But, I am keen to understand what you mean by "being a FluxBox only distro has certain advantages"?

Ciao for now.

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 04:40:58 PM
I bumped it up to the latest sid kernels 3.10.2... It caused the size to jump from 617MiB to 648 MiB... still manageable

As far as the question regarding a FluxBox Distro and it's advantages, as far as I know there is not a known distro at all that has only FluxBox
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 10, 2013, 05:30:13 PM
^ SalixOS (slackware based) has a fluxbox spin.

just curious, were you going with systemd, or sticking with the debian default? What about EFI?
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: apprentice on September 10, 2013, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: VastOne
as far as I know there is not a known distro at all that has only FluxBox
well there is/was this (http://fluxcapacity.99k.org/index.php)
and this (http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-general-1/announcing-nflux-linux%3B-a-fluxbox-oriented-trinity-of-distros-804611/)
or maybe this (http://marchlinux.wikidot.com/)
 :D
all old mind you

although far from a regular here

strip out anything you can
i think ive said this before but
everybody uses different stuff
i bet i use a different final four (browser, filemanager, terminal, editor) than everybody else
apt-get is our friend
and smxi does all the hard work

i can add my beloved openbox back in
even though flux kinda grows on ya

anything having to do with better sound is ok in my book
and if thats pulse...

and once you get ikey's installer happening
when ikey gets ikey's installer happening

winner 8)

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 05:49:02 PM
^ Those are great points... and along the same thoughts that I have.  I want to focus on a simple base that each SID user is more than capable of turning into what they want

I have ikey's installer and am just now beginning to fiddle with it

I appreciate it apprentice!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 05:50:42 PM
Here is the link to the latest ISO for testing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4gKMu7RCW3eb3NkZFNWRDlJTW8/edit?usp=sharing)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: surio on September 10, 2013, 06:05:31 PM
As I mentioned previously, antiX and salixOS are both dedicated fluxbox distros. But neither of these are "sid" based, effectively leaving that claim to fame as VSIDO's of course.  :P  :)

Oh, and like someone mentioned, I do hope we're still init based rather than systemd based. :)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: dizzie on September 10, 2013, 06:28:40 PM
We can turn this into "favorite 10 apps" but really? Geany, who use that anymore (well except surio :P) medit is simple, and it can even "hibernate in ram" and it remembers your last files (just like a webbrowser). Screw Geany, if you need it, apt-get in :D
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: jedi on September 10, 2013, 07:58:14 PM
My favorites are already all there.  I've been riding this ship for a year come Sept. 12th.  (if memory serves)  From the beginning, the whole idea was to be based on SID.  This, I hope, never changes.

The latest Liquorix Kernels are the ones always ran on my lappy.  Once in a great while I'll notice this iteration or the next will cause MINOR heat or memory issues.  Not enough to worry me to the point of not using them, or that harm will come to my lappy.  My beef with Liquorix was at the very beginning of the project, and that involved Bumblebee which I solved.  Now, thanks to dedicated graphics I no longer have to deal with Bumblebee!  I guess what I'm trying to say is that going backwards to the Debian stable Kernel seems to be to much of a step backwards.  After every install, I immediately run smxi and switch to Liquorix sources anyway so I guess it really isn't an issue...

Never used Geany, just always seemed to 'bulky' to me, and Medit works.  After playing with Pulseaudio the last couple of days, it is a real gem and a winner IMO.  Definitely a 'keeper'!

As to iKeys insatller, I've tried it out several times in the last couple of weeks.  It is very nice looking/polished, but lacks all the functionality the current installer has.  UEFI+GPT may be the wave of the future, but it isn't quite here yet.  We aren't the only FOSS community with ambivalent feelings towards UEFI.  Intel forced it on all of us.  The thing about Linux is that lots of people are able to use older hardware and maintain it's viability with Linux and have no hope of achieving an EFI bootable machine, short of a new purchase.  I think it is a good idea to maintain some interest in it and even continue to try to implement it with VSIDO, but it's not anything we needed "yesterday".  I know the argument is for the amazing 4 second boot time, but I'm sorry, I almost never reboot!  And furthermore, anything booting in less than 30 seconds still amazes me as I've been in the computer industry since 1983.  I remember having to "Park" the hdd for crying out loud.  Back then had someone told me we'd be looking at less than a 30 second boot times, I'd have shrugged them off as delusional.  (remember the card punch machines and how long it took to just power one up?)

VSIDO is a perfect gleaming example of a SID distro, and even makes a great argument for Debian to rid it of the "unstable" moniker.  If the guys at Debian are watching or listening, they'd see VSIDO as the "perfect" example of what a "Rolling Distro" is and should be!  There is nothing "unstable" here unless you count me and lwfitz...

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 10, 2013, 08:48:07 PM
^ Nice feedback Jedi! So long as I get feedback that the 3.10.2 kernel that is from SID is fine, that will be what we use... Specifically I need to hear if you and dizzie have issues with it with the blank no cursor black screen

@dizzie...  ???  8)

Regarding ikey's new installer, I have not used it at all yet... The one I had some people testing was his original from 3-4 years ago... This new one hopefully will handle some things better but all in all I am quite comfortable with the current installer

When it is cooler, I hope to resolve it all with a Debiani-Installer, but that will have to wait a bit
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 11, 2013, 01:39:37 AM
Reconfigured my vsido to mirror the planned release. I like it, sound quality is better with pulseaudio, never really used xfce so it's not missed. Will miss geany, but medit is solid.

Going to be a good release when you're done.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 11, 2013, 01:47:53 AM
Here is the total package list (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4gKMu7RCW3eREZnQ1BSMllqVXc/edit?usp=sharing) if you are interested PackRat


And Thanks!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: statmonkey on September 11, 2013, 04:58:05 AM
Just my 2 FWIW. I agree with surio that my whole point for running Vsido is SID.  I think you have the right idea with fluxbox but I really am an OB user and while there are stable OB distro's there is not much that I can think of that is a solid SID distro with OB (maybe Semplice? can't remember and it's been a while since I looked at it).  I really haven't used fluxbox much but sure I could get over that hump and if you want OB there is not much to put it in.

SID from the start is the critical issue for me.  I wanted something that would save me the time and effort of going through a full Debian install and give me a basic working environment quickly with at least most of the things I want. At the moment, Vsido gives me exactly what I want.  Not saying that change is not a good thing.  For me anyway having SpaceFM and Udevil there are important since both installs still require some handwork otherwise and see that as kind of a good rule of thumb.  There are several things (pulseaudio would be one) that installing is rather laborious and I would think most people do end up adding them. 

While going to the most bare bones possible sounds good there is a risk of going too far the other way, if it becomes too bare bones I might as well be installing Deb SID.  I would guess you aren't talking that bare bones.

Per the comments regarding pulseaudio, I agree that would be a good addition as a complement to alsa.  I have already personally gone that direction.  I never look at the XFCE stuff, don't remove it but never open any of it that I know of so losing that would just mean less weight from the start in my book.  There are lots of things I never touch or bother to remove like synaptic or thunar or medit for that matter.  I hold Geany in pretty high regard (due to plugins, templates and scripts I wrote for it) though it would be no issue to swap things out if you go that direction.  That said, as apprentice points out we all have our little favorites and that just goes with being a 'nix user. 

I really like what you have done so far though and the only deal breaker for me would be dropping SID (or if you decided you wanted to run Gnome or KDE).  Almost forgot.  I have become a huge umplayer fan thanks to Vsido.  Really a nice little tool to have around.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: blaze on September 11, 2013, 12:56:59 PM
VastOne, just do what you feel is the right thing to do for you, you are after all the maintainer.   :)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 11, 2013, 02:54:21 PM
@statmonkey

VSIDO is and will always be SID... having the 3.2 kernel is the standard install even for SID if you still used the old business card install.  I am going to keep the SID kernel as the default kernel, per the points that surio brought up

Geany can and probably should be added to the vsido-welcome script ...

I appreciate the feedback and kind words, thanks!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 12, 2013, 03:07:51 AM
Alot of good feedback on this one.

I have a dilemma. I not only use geany but I also use thunar so seeing them go is a bit sad but Im also all for removing XFCE and OB.

Adding some of the xfce apps to vsido-welcome is a great idea (maybe just add xfce as a whole to vsido-welcome?).

VSIDO as the pure Fluxbox distro would be absolutely fantastic! Whatever is decided Im all in and will do my best to break whatever is thrown my way  8) 8)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 12, 2013, 03:19:50 AM
Thunar and the xfce4-panel are installed from vsido-welcome now... :D

On the new one I took it out, but I think it should be back in... on that I will also add Geany

Thanks lwfitz!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 12, 2013, 02:54:20 PM

I have a dilemma. I not only use geany but I also use thunar so seeing them go is a bit sad but Im also all for removing XFCE and OB.


Setup both Geany and Thunar for install during the vsido-welcome script

Here is the link to the latest ISO for testing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4gKMu7RCW3ed1Q2Z1E5WEtacXM/edit?usp=sharing)

I am pretty sure this will be the final based on further testing
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 12, 2013, 04:18:29 PM
^ Thanks! Downloading now. Is xfce needed for thunar or geany? Maybe its time to just get spacefm smb shares working properly.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: cobaltwolfe on September 12, 2013, 04:42:37 PM
Will be downloading this as soon as get back out to internet. Been following the discussion and its sounding like its going to be awesome.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 12, 2013, 04:47:06 PM
^ Thanks! Downloading now. Is xfce needed for thunar or geany? Maybe its time to just get spacefm smb shares working properly.

Not all of Xfce4 is needed for Thunar... just what it needs...

I think that statmonkey here and of course ignorantguru (spacefm developer) would help in solving the smb issue with spacefm and that would be a win win for everyone
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 12, 2013, 05:15:38 PM
@lwfitz

geany doesn't need any of xfce, just a couple gtk libs, and whatever plugins you want to install with it.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: surio on September 12, 2013, 05:31:45 PM
I already have VSIDO installed, so geany is already on my m/c. I take it, future ISO releases won't come bundled with geany? Getting relegated to the welcome script... oh the ignominy! ;) :P  :P

GNOME-dependencies? in or out? If your ISO is under 670 MB or so with gnome-dependencies inside, I would still suggest that you include GNOME dependencies... It future proofs the installation against later app installs, specially if people don't have "autobahn internet" all the time.


@Vastone,
   if it is not too much of a bother, can you write a small summary post by collating all the developments so far, as to what the "new look" VSIDO will be made of?
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: surio on September 12, 2013, 05:46:20 PM
Oh, and I just realised, gdebi is also gone ??? :o ! But, I used to use it regularly too :-/
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 12, 2013, 05:47:30 PM
There are as little gnome-dependencies as are needed by the apps installed... and geany was probably the biggest culprit

If you already have vsido and geany installed, this really has no impact on you...

With geany in vsido-welcome, it becomes a choice and not a demand.. I think there is less people who want / need geany than there are that do demand it... Honestly, I do not know why I included it to begin with on the original design and install

I have already included the package list in a post above...

In a nutshell it is this:

Removed Xfce 4.10 but kept some parts (application finder, notifyd, task-manager)
Placed Thunar and Geany in vsido-welcome
removal of uget
removal of gFTP
removal of aptosid kernel-remover (because smxi does the same thing)
added pulseaudio

I also removed two icon sets that were not needed... That significantly reduced the ISO size..

This started out because the 64 bit is growing out of control (717 Mib) now...

I am hearing a lot of good feedback and most of it seems to indicate this new build is on the correct path

And gdebi has not been removed, where are you seeing that?
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: blaze on September 12, 2013, 06:55:53 PM
Thanks for package list and explanation VastOne, looking forward to squeeze in a test of the new iso during the weekend or possibly early next week.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 12, 2013, 06:57:28 PM
^ You bet blaze, thanks for the interest and taking/finding time for testing it...  8)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: blaze on September 13, 2013, 02:59:24 PM
My "New Direction Thought"; This feels ready for official Vsido release. Worked well live, installed it, no problems. If there should occur something I`ll post about it of course. Thanks, VastOne & "staff testers", great work!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: surio on September 13, 2013, 07:12:24 PM
I think there is less people who want / need geany than there are that do demand it... Honestly, I do not know why I included it to begin with on the original design and install
Let's call it "the crunchbang effect", eh? ;)

I have already included the package list in a post above...
which probably got "clobbered in the melee". I shall give it a once over............. after locating it first :P

In a nutshell it is this:

Removed Xfce 4.10 but kept some parts (application finder, notifyd, task-manager)
Placed Thunar and Geany in vsido-welcome
removal of uget
removal of gFTP
removal of aptosid kernel-remover (because smxi does the same thing)
added pulseaudio

I also removed two icon sets that were not needed... That significantly reduced the ISO size..
This started out because the 64 bit is growing out of control (717 Mib) now...
This is pretty good, I would say. :) Thanks.


And gdebi has not been removed, where are you seeing that?
If you didn't implement this thread (http://vsido.org/index.php/topic,482.0.html), well, thank you. :)

Last but not least,  This thread (http://vsido.org/index.php/topic,501.0.html) made for intriguing reading. We, the existing users also need to do this?

Code: [Select]
sudo rm -rf /lib/live/mount
Cheerio
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 13, 2013, 08:36:26 PM
VSIDO has nothing to do or was ever influenced by CrunchBang... I had some early users who thought Geany would be a good fit but I believe the majority now see it as something not needed... Now that it is in vsido-welcome, it is easily available...

Speaking of vsido-welcome, that is the only thing that VSIDO and #! have in common, and Philip allowing for the use of his excellent scripts will always be a bonus for any VSIDO user and one that I am eternally grateful for

Yes, all VSIDO users should run

Code: [Select]
sudo rm -rf /lib/live/mount
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: tlinsley on September 14, 2013, 02:23:35 AM
Does medit support rectangular selections?  I have tried all the usual key combos from other editors to no avail.

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 14, 2013, 02:26:48 AM
^ Do you mean block selections?  Not sure exactly what you mean by rectangular

For block selections I use control mouse select
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: tlinsley on September 14, 2013, 03:15:47 AM
Yes I think we are talking about the same thing.  And "Ctrl + mouse select" does not work for me.

Just in case we are not speaking of same...

Block select in Geany via "Shift + Ctrl + mouse select":
(http://i.imgur.com/9dUH7IEs.png)


Attempted block select in Medit via "Ctrl + mouse select":
(http://i.imgur.com/UtLHPQNs.png)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: statmonkey on September 14, 2013, 03:31:07 AM
I don't use medit much but I am pretty sure they both work the same way Geany is IMHO a little clumsier and more cumbersome.  Medit creates a section from a line ending where Geany is a set frame size regardless of the line endings.  But ctl+shift+mouse select work in both.

Now lets go easy on my Geany guys.  I think it is just what you get used to, I was a huge gedit guy at one time.  Got tired of all the crap you had to put with it and switched.  I can see the same argument with geany and probably will learn to love medit ... but for now :)

Some good stuff in here.  I had noticed the live stuff but wasn't sure if I could whack it.  Thanks for letting me know.  I also have been running the new build and very nice, fast, clean and lean ... that said I would be hard pressed to move away from OB for now.  I am sure flux can do a lot of great things but not sure I feel like learning a new DM all over again and the little I looked at I was lost from the start.  I remember I learned OB from some blog somewhere (can't remember the guy's name but it was the go to resource for OB newbies at one time). If there is anything out there like that for flux I would be interested.

As always VastOne great job and great information.  This is another excellent thread and appreciate all the contributions.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 14, 2013, 03:50:12 AM
@tlinsley

Block selection is not possible in Medit per my searches on google...

Geany would be your choice and one you are comfortable with

@statmonkey, OB is still there and will remain there... I am sure PackRat will be along to point you to the Flux sites that can show you the ways.. to me it is very similar as OB in that it is a single file to edit for each area and once you see and get the hang of it, it is very easy
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 14, 2013, 07:17:02 PM
All right... the builds are done, the testing has gone well...  Here is a couple of images that show"

First Boot Memory and ScreenFetch 32 bit

(http://s14.postimg.org/94347eb59/2013_09_14_1379184559_1024x768_scrot.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/94347eb59/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/a7yhk3flj/2013_09_14_1379184618_1024x768_scrot.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/a7yhk3flj/)

First Boot Memory and ScreenFetch 64 bit

(http://s10.postimg.org/7kzhv9o3p/2013_09_14_1379180900_1024x768_scrot.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/7kzhv9o3p/)

(http://s15.postimg.org/5ewnetvp3/2013_09_14_1379184671_1024x768_scrot.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/5ewnetvp3/)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 15, 2013, 01:40:09 AM
@statmonkey -

I'm guessing - no betting! - it was urukrama's blog (https://urukrama.wordpress.com/openbox-guide/) you were using for openbox.

If you want/need to learn fluxbox, start with the HowTo section of the fluxbox wiki (http://fluxbox-wiki.org/index.php?title=Category:Howtos); and ask your questions in the fluxbox section of the wm configuration thread. The fluxbox thread over at #! forums is almost as good as VSIDO one  ;D
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 15, 2013, 01:42:26 AM
^ I also have found quite a bit about FluxBox on the Arch Wiki
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: statmonkey on September 15, 2013, 02:08:24 AM
Thanks guys I will stop playing with plait to read up on fluxbox.  Yes bonus points to PackRat it was the great urukrama blog that got my feet wet in OB (how could I have forgotten at one point I lived there for days), you should have taken the bet :) I will reread the fluxbox wiki HowTo and check out Arch and CB forums.  Appreciate the leads.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 15, 2013, 02:14:14 AM
@PackRat... Don't you find FluxBox easier to configure and work with in it's setup than OpenBox?  I never was a fan of OB because I could not stand how you had to work with it and perhaps gave up on it too quickly. With FluxBox, I found it simple and direct and was quite pleased with how easy it was to get to know and use
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: tlinsley on September 15, 2013, 02:15:41 AM
@tlinsley

Block selection is not possible in Medit per my searches on google...

Geany would be your choice and one you are comfortable with

Thanks for verifying!  My googling had turned up nothing positive, so just wanted to make sure I had not missed something obvious.

As for your plan to remove Geany, no worries here.  I customize the crap out of every distro I load anyways.  I have found your VSIDO and Siduction to be the best boiler plate distros for Debian.  Now it will be Siduction for Xfce and VSIDO for Fluxbox.  Good thing I created extra root partitions a while back... ;D

Hopefully I can load up and try out your new build next week.  Lately I have been using mostly Fedora, while I studying for the RH certs.  Getting back to Debian/VSIDO land for a few days will be a very welcome respite!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: Gordon on September 15, 2013, 09:51:27 AM
Hi VastOne

Just dropped in to add my thoughts. Really it's just say please don't drop openbox, off all of them that I have seen and used I find openbox the easiest to use. I have just downloaded your test ISO only to realize that is 64bit and I'm on 32 still never mind I can wait  :D
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 15, 2013, 01:57:01 PM
@vastone -

Yes, I find fluxbox much easier to configure than openbox since you don't need to deal with xml syntax. In all fairness though, I was using blackbox and fluxbox with RedHat 6 and 7 before openbox was around so there is a familiarity issue.

The real selling point(s) for me are:
1. tabbed windows -- can't live without 'em
2. self contained - don't need tint2 or some other 3rd party panel

Openbox is a solid window manager though - I know people that love pipe menus; which I don't think fluxbox can do (fluxbox macro maybe?) - but fvwm can. Like most things linux, you find what works for you and go with it.

I only recommended removing openbox and geany (which I use, by the way) because there is a duplication of services there with your preferred apps fluxbox and medit - same with spacefm and thunar. I am very much a advocate of the "one app that works" design philosophy when it comes to distros. The nice thing about using debian is that what the end user ultimately wants to use is typically only an "apt-get install" away.

So design VSIDO like you would paint a landscape or sculpt a still life and make it an extension of your self. We end users can then decide which frame suits our needs.

Looking forward to the new release, may prompt me to do a clean install if I have the time.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 15, 2013, 03:23:35 PM
^ Well said PackRat. thank you!

@ Gordon, after getting some things lined out today, I am releasing it all a little bit later
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 23, 2013, 12:58:27 AM
Quote from: ectropy
Psst! The current release contains 200Mb+ of cruft which can, and should, be pared out.
(don't shoot the messenger, eh)

Hmmmmmmmmm

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: sqlpython on September 23, 2013, 01:54:45 AM
@Gordon says
Quote
Just dropped in to add my thoughts. Really it's just say please don't drop openbox, off all of them that I have seen and used I find openbox the easiest to use.
  Let me say that I am with @Gordon.. However I do REALLY like FLuxBox.
I am on the other side of the coin from @packrat in that I have become very comfortable with OpenBox.

  Edit: However a Fluxbox primary Distro like a Openbox primary Distro does send a Unique Signature..
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: Digit on September 23, 2013, 05:51:56 AM
oh well, i'm late to this party, but i'll have a stab.  ^_^


fluxbox vs openbox:

i confess, i've never spent much time trying to configure fluxbox, and a LOT of time poking at openbox.   ... i suppose i should have a poke at fluxbox so my opinion on this can matter. lol.

if you want to keep an ob around, i'd gladly be a contributor to the configgery... y'know, could be a route to go if u decide to have both ootb.    you configure the fluxbox, and "we" configure the openbox.


bye bye xfce:

good riddance.  ^_^   never been a fan.


gnome deps

good riddance.  you fattie.


other wm?

fancy including an installer of other window managers & even user configs, in the welcome script...  ?
(hehe, like so folks could install tabular boonad (my xmonad config))


decrufting

i like the decrufting tips from ectropy.  lets have that.  mmm.
i'm a big fan of ncdu too.  also may be handy (so long as it doesnt have stupid deps itself) could be fslint


also

so, scripts n aliases n things...

stuff like:
Code: [Select]
alias fehb='feh --bg-scale'
alias fehbs='feh --bg-scale'
alias fehbc='feh --bg-center'
alias fehbf='feh --bg-fill'
alias fehbm='feh --bg-max'
alias fehbt='feh --bg-tile'
which adds convenience for very little overhead. 

and even perhaps some variant of:
Code: [Select]
alias agi='sudo apt-get install'
alias agr='sudo apt-get remove'
alias agR='sudo apt-get --purge remove'
alias agpr='sudo apt-get --purge remove'
alias acs='apt-cache search'
alias acsi='apt-cache --installed search'
alias agu='sudo apt-get update'
alias agup='sudo apt-get upgrade'
alias agdu='sudo apt-get dist-upgrade'
alias agar='sudo apt-get autoremove'
alias agc='sudo apt-get clean'

... cos, most of us already have something like this... how about give the people such, ootb.  ;)


okies, i'll stop there before my suggestions start getting silly, just for the sake of suggesting things. ;)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 23, 2013, 04:03:40 PM
With all this feedback, is it safe to surmise to just shitcan VSIDO and install antix and switch to debian sid repos?

Sure would save me a lot of time, work, expenses, effort and would perhaps improve my golf game to where it used to be
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: statmonkey on September 23, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
lol, enjoy the golf.

I think we all have our things we like and what is "best" changes daily.  For example I am bound to geany, terminator, mpd etc.  They may not be the best and may require things that others consider cruft but I am going to have them regardless of what I run.

I have been running Vsido for a couple of months now and overall consider it the best distro experience I have ever had.  For me it is a perfect blend of what I want with a few things in or out I would like to have.  Instead of making base changes to my system it really has been a case of tweaking a little here and there.  I don't know of anything that could be done that could make that any better.  There will always be things here or there that could or could not be included.  Overall though what matters to me is I can go from an empty box to my setup in far less time than I have ever been able to do with any set up.  Once again, great job VastOne and all, I really appreciate all the work that has gone into this.

Count me in on the fluxbox thing.  I did dive into it with the encouragement from all (thank you again) and would agree with a post I read somewhere on here that it seems considerably easier to monkey with than ob once you get the hang of it.  Well worth the little effort it took to get there.  I am currently (personally debating what to do with the XFCE stuff and thunar) it's not like they really are hurting anything there on my box and with 10 TB of combined space and 32 GB of ram I really don't need to remove much of anything (except the need to be compulsive).

FWIW
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 23, 2013, 06:09:46 PM
^ You just nailed the value add of VSIDO to a new user with

Quote
I have been running Vsido for a couple of months now and overall consider it the best distro experience I have ever had.  For me it is a perfect blend of what I want with a few things in or out I would like to have.  Instead of making base changes to my system it really has been a case of tweaking a little here and there.  I don't know of anything that could be done that could make that any better.  There will always be things here or there that could or could not be included.  Overall though what matters to me is I can go from an empty box to my setup in far less time than I have ever been able to do with any set up.

I would also add to that VSIDO is SID to that and it is a complete vision of what I want to accomplish with VSIDO

@ Digit, there are several aliases that are the default in VSIDO that do those, are you suggesting to change the naming conventions on them?

Regarding tint2... I have tested all of the available toolbars that I could and find them incredibly lacking in basic functions and were so bloated to be stupid if they did have some key features.  Tint2 is not perfect by any means but it does get the job done.  If I can figure out how to get fbtoolbar to iconify in a way that makes sense, I would use it.. It is simple.. click the app on the toolbar and it opens and then let it stay there (on toolbar), click the icon again and it minimizes.  Tint2 does not do this by default but scripts were created using xdotool and wmctrl to make it happen (and can be used with fbtoolbar if it is doable).  OTOH, if there were easy key combinations created in FluxBox that one could get used to and use, it could be a better argument for fbtoolbar.  I do not care either way, I put in what I like to use and developed... For any one new, they can learn tint2 editing (very easy) or shit can it and remove it from autostart and be happy with whatever they want

I am open to any changes that make sense, and would change to a better toolbar and/or task launcher if it works

Yes the top right corner black blob is the tint2 systray
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 23, 2013, 06:43:47 PM
Ive read the feedback and there are some good point but a whole lot of it is personal presences and/or what another distro does......... We are not another distro. We are VSIDO! A user friendly Debian SID distro with a forum that offers answers and support in a way that no other forum does..... With respect.
Are there kinks to work out? Sure, but I dont think focusing on making the ISO 100mb or trying to "do what others do" is the answer. If I want what another distro has to offer then I need to install that other distro. Plain and simple.

You know why I like VSIDO? I like it because I can install anything I want and ask any stupid question without fear of being spoken down to. I like VSIDO because when I break it (and I do) it takes me a whopping 6 min to reinstall.

I simply do not like the idea of doing something because someone else does it. If slimming down VSIDO or removing/adding programs will make this a better distro then Im all for it but lets do it for the sake of growth not to blend in and become one more forgettable linux distro.

Edit:

Also, stating that a program is garbage is personal opinion and nothing more. I personally like geany over medit but Im also clear that one program doesnt make a distro, the structure and community does.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 23, 2013, 06:48:04 PM
^ Well said lwfitz, thanks for that and all of your support!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 23, 2013, 08:27:56 PM
Quote
I have been running Vsido for a couple of months now and overall consider it the best distro experience I have ever had.  For me it is a perfect blend of what I want with a few things in or out I would like to have.  Instead of making base changes to my system it really has been a case of tweaking a little here and there.  I don't know of anything that could be done that could make that any better.  There will always be things here or there that could or could not be included.  Overall though what matters to me is I can go from an empty box to my setup in far less time than I have ever been able to do with any set up.

+1 - Usable, user friendly, debian sid-based distro out of the box.

Quote
VSIDO is SID to that and it is a complete vision of what I want to accomplish with VSIDO

and that's what matters - you don't look over Worhol's shoulder and say to him "add some yellow"  ;D
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 23, 2013, 08:32:17 PM
^ Thanks for that and all of your support!

... what about pink?   :P
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: PackRat on September 23, 2013, 08:45:42 PM
Why not pink - knock yourself out (http://pablo-picasso.paintings.name/rose-period/).
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 24, 2013, 06:43:07 AM
^ I will assume the head in the sand comment is pointed at me, and if Im correct then you need to read my comments again. I dont think anyone here is against change that would be for the betterment of VSIDO as a whole. Instead I think the issue is changing simply because another distro does it different.
I have installled and used more distros than I can remember and some of them were fantastic while others didnt work for me. Does that make any one of them "better" than the other? Maybe in my eyes but not in reality.

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 24, 2013, 11:10:41 AM
^ my comment on shitcan/antix/golf was said tongue in cheek, a smiley should have been added

I look forward to your comments and suggestions... I have pretty thick skin,  I need to have it sitting in this chair

Do not change your style or comments at all.  I am sure we all know your intentions are not to troll and it is obvious you have been around the linux block a time or two

Thanks for these conversations, it is what keeps me busy... which is something I prefer...  8)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 24, 2013, 05:57:07 PM
My posting that quote out of context was poor form, lwfitz. I apologize.


Its all good buddy  8)

as vastone said, keep the ideas coming. He needs more work to do anyway :-D
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: jedi on September 24, 2013, 06:32:00 PM
Wow, I really like what this thread has turned into!  This is the reason I use VSIDO, (now VSIDO II Velociraptor!) because everything 'anyone' says is listened to, and, if beneficial to the distro taken into account.   8)

Like lwfitz, I also have tried too many "distro's" to count.  Some are still around, some have found their way to the trash heap.  VSIDO has been around now for at least four of us, for over one year, and for VastOne for over three years.  IMO, VSIDO has truly turned SID into a "Rolling-Release" version of the latest, greatest, bleeding edge Linux distro available.  New ISO's every couple of weeks, (sometimes every couple of days) and not only that, but a brand new users post on something he/she discovered to make it better or fix a flaw (not sure if a flaw has ever been found?  ??? ) will inevitably find it's way into the very next ISO.

IMO, (ok I'll be plain here, IN MY OPINION:) one mans cruft is anothers gold mine. nuff said...   ;D

One of the most wonderful aspects of VSIDO, is the invaluable and vast amount of knowledge accumulated here in the VSIDO Community.  Not to mention our #VSIDO IRC channel.  Anybody here ever asked a question on the Debian forums?  Not the friendliest group on the planet to say the least.  Some of the other Linux forums are even worse, with their self-proclaimed l33tists/gurus!  Here, you can ask anything, and someone will not just give you a hint, but will walk you step by step through any given situation, without having to hear one of them say RTFM.  Same on the IRC channel, except you'll most likely get the info instantly and probably more than one person will chime in to help.  This is part of what makes VSIDO an enormous pleasure to use, and an exemplary model of what a Linux distro should be!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 24, 2013, 06:48:48 PM
^ Wow... I am humbled to the core on that one, thanks jedi...

An update of sorts on what has been discussed...

I have been removing a lot of the cruft that ectropy suggested and it will be a part of this weekends ISO builds

I have tested (again) a plethora of launchers/panels etc... lxpanel almost makes it and if I can figure out a couple of BS issues, then I may actually switch to that just to have an all in one panel/launcher TO MY LIKING...  :-[  ...  One of the BS issues with lxpanel is that it allegedly uses the freedesktop.org standards on .desktop files but does not transfer all of those standards to itself.. these same things work perfectly in tint2 but not on the panel..  If anyone has good experience with lxpanel, I could use some brainstorming time on the IRC if you want

As always, keep it coming!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: statmonkey on September 25, 2013, 02:03:54 AM
I think I can survive a few days :) but thanks for the concern.  I haven't killed a system in a while so I am overdue though.  This is really exciting stuff.  I have really enjoyed lurking in this thread by the way, even if it has at times been taxing to my little brain.  As always VastOne, thank you for your efforts for all of us.
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: Digit on September 25, 2013, 03:32:07 AM

@ Digit, there are several aliases that are the default in VSIDO that do those, are you suggesting to change the naming conventions on them?


oh!  hehe, nah.  all good then.  my time spent with vanilla vsido configs was brief, and havnt properly checked out the releases since the one i installed on my main box at the start of the year.    i should just go find those vsido default aliases and adjust mine to follow that vsido convention.  ;)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 25, 2013, 03:35:19 AM
Here you go digit...  Have at them mate, make them what you want them to be... your project if you want it!

Code: [Select]
alias up='sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get dist-upgrade'
alias get='sudo apt-get install'
alias rem='sudo apt-get autoremove'
alias cl='sudo apt-get autoclean'
alias se='apt-cache policy'
alias upg='sudo update-grub'
alias grc='ps aux | grep'
alias re='source ~/.bashrc'
alias cd..='cd ..'
alias md=mkdir
alias sdn='sudo shutdown -h now'
alias prg="sudo apt-get purge"
alias ls='ls -F --color --group-directories-first'
alias l="ls -lha"
alias c='clear'
alias q='exit'
alias s='sudo'
alias al='cat ~/.bash_aliases'
alias muz='cd $HOME/music && gyts'
alias fin='find . | grep -i -s -e "$@"'


######################################################
################# My Added Aliases ###################
######################################################
alias sl="sudo medit /etc/apt/sources.list"
alias reinstall='sudo apt-get install --reinstall'
alias finstall='sudo apt-get -f install'
alias agp='sudo apt-get autoremove --purge'
alias add='sudo add-apt-repository'
alias install-norec='sudo apt-get install --no-install-recommends'
alias ls='ls --color=auto'
alias dir='dir --color=auto'
alias vdir='vdir --color=auto'
alias grep='grep --color=auto'
alias fgrep='fgrep --color=auto'
alias egrep='egrep --color=auto'
alias addgpg='sudo apt-key adv --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com --recv-keys'
alias addkey='sudo gpg --keyserver subkeys.pgp.net --recv'
alias expkey='gpg --export --armor'
alias keyadd='sudo apt-key add - '
alias sfonts='sudo fc-cache -fv'
alias fonts='fc-cache -fv'
alias da='date "+%a, %b %d, %Y [%I:%M %P]"'
alias dat='date "+%A, %B %d, %Y [%I:%M %P]"'

######################################################
############### Various INXI Aliases #################
######################################################
####################### Short ########################
alias s11='inxi -Fz -c6' ## filtered
alias S11='inxi -F -c6' ## not filtered
####################### Full #########################
alias SYS='inxi -ACDfGIpluNrsSt cm3 -x -v7 -c6' ## not filtered
alias sys='inxi -ACDfGIpluNrsSt cm3 -x -v7 -c6 -z' ## Filtered
####################### Pieces #######################
alias aud='inxi -A -x -c6'
alias cpu='inxi -Cf -x -c6'
alias hdd='inxi -Dd -x -c6'
alias mac='inxi -M -x -c6'
alias net='inxi -N -x -c6'
alias par='inxi -plu -x -c6'
alias sen='inxi -s -x -c6'
alias gfx='inxi -Gx -x -c6'
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: Digit on September 25, 2013, 03:58:06 AM
lol. ok, maybe not.  those aliases look far harder to remember (coming from perspective of already knowing the apt-get and apt-cache commands.)  :) 
and no feh backgrounding aliases?  aw.  ^_^

wait... when you say make them what i want them to be, my project if i want it... do you mean for vsido?  ((cos when i first read that, i thought you were politely telling me to piss off))   i'm now offered the role of being the guy who determines the aliases?  :O   

well, if that is the case...
to keep the workload light, i suggest just paste in my aliases too.  ;)  i dont think they overlap anywhere, and that way everyone (but the extremist anti-bloat peeps) is happy, no preferred alias of their's missing.   wont hurt to have two aliases for some package management stuff.  :)

(i can see i'd take well to typing "up" instead of "agu && agdu", hehe)

oh, i suppose i should add to mine:
Code: [Select]
alias agac='sudo apt-get autoclean'                                                                                                                                           
alias acp='sudo apt-cache policy'
  ... for some more thoroughness.  straight abreviations of the apt commands gets familiar fast.


hrmm... i wonder... another set of aliases for feh background commands too... in a more human language....  background, background-fill, background-scale... etc?    meh.    seems like too much typing... bg?   defeats the point a little...   meh, the feh is fine.


now, IF i was correct first time around (and you were telling me to piss off to my own project with my own aliases) sorry for blahblahblahing over your forum.  ;)


(damnit, was gonna post something else, some other suggestion that was actually worthy... but forgot now after seeing that someone else replied message.  doh)
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: statmonkey on September 25, 2013, 04:20:42 AM
FYI
Code: [Select]
alias did='sudo ls -l /dev/disk/by-id/*'
alias tr='sudo find / -type d -name *Trash*' # find all your trash files
alias rb='exec bash'      # restart bash environment
alias hb='history|more'            # get a listing of your bash history
alias path='echo -e ${PATH//:/\\n}' #lists out your path var
alias atoz="mkdir {A..Z}" #create a to z folders
alias uuid='ls -al /dev/disk/by-uuid/*' # List drives by uuid
alias netmap='nmap 192.168.0-1.0-255 -sP' # get a complete netmap requires nmap

gd you guys. Every time I take a break and look in here there is something great.  3rd thing down on my personal list
"add aliases for things like gpg etc."

VastOne strikes again.  So I guess I will add these until Digit will makes me start over again :)
Title: aliases - Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: Digit on September 25, 2013, 12:22:57 PM
heh, seems i've a short memory. ;) http://vsido.org/index.php/topic,142.msg4073.html#msg4073 (http://vsido.org/index.php/topic,142.msg4073.html#msg4073)

anyhoo, thought i'd go make this thread too: *quickly goes to make it* http://vsido.org/index.php/topic,522.0.html (http://vsido.org/index.php/topic,522.0.html) ... there we go.

Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 26, 2013, 03:37:44 AM
Ill download once its done uploading
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 26, 2013, 03:41:19 AM
About 12 minutes left and it is going to the ftp server
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 26, 2013, 03:45:17 AM
Cool, any issues getting logged in or anything?
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: VastOne on September 26, 2013, 03:45:52 AM
None at all... thanks buddy!
Title: Re: New Direction thoughts
Post by: lwfitz on September 26, 2013, 03:48:18 AM
Awesome and Im glad to be able to help