VSIDO systemd and upstart discussion

[ozitraveller]

OMG! It's back again!

All the forums I frequent lately are all over this, again!

Surely it's passed it's "use by date" and should be nuked........


I need a beer! 

[jedi]

Hmm.  I am a double edge guy myself.  Can't grow a beard to save my life.  Jedi I hope you take this with the respect that is intended (with a little playfulness) and you consider that there might be some other ways to see  this.

No offense taken at all sir!  I also am unable to grow a beard.  (well except on my neck)

My knowledge of systemd could be put in a thimble!  (or something even smaller)  I wrote all of that from the point of view of an end-user, and as I mentioned, I'm no coder/programmer by ANY definition of the word.  Your points are all valid and very well explained!

Philosophically speaking...   bwahahahahaha

I do not know Linus, but your are correct, he got the Kernel from Unix and it was shortsighted of me to say otherwise.  Bash, pine, and many others...  wow was I not thinking at all?  (though I have never used pine to check my mail!)  No I wasn't!  I also was not considering the impact systemd has had on programmers.  I was narrow minded in not considering that.  In that regard, indeed, let us continue to have a discourse about the init system.

My rant (that is what it was/is) was mostly an off the cuff reaction to the discussion continuing to impact the implementation of Linux on any level to a new user.  I definitely deserve a spanking for some of my remarks!  (philosophically speaking of course)  You're a very valued member of our VSIDO community and I certainly hope you would never think I would consider you in any way stupid, antiquarian, pedantic, etc.  I definitely do not!

My point when it comes to the numbers, is not that everyone should hop aboard, but that it is simply the init system that is currently receiving the most attention.  Of course you are right, more is never necessarily representative of better!  As to Kay, I have read several of the "dressing downs" he has received from Mr. Torvalds, and my intent was that he (Kay) should "go home".  My concept of him creating the Linux Kernel, was to put a free OS out there...

And yes, I had firmly reached the German conclusion! 

I definitely will cede the point that systemd is not the end all, be all solution for Linux.  Hopefully I clarified that in the follow up post.  Linux IS all about choice.

Very good post statmonkey, and thanks for putting me back on the straight and narrow!  (philosophically speaking!)

[VastOne]

Wow.. welcome back statmonkey and with a muthafeckin BANG!  Nice!

Here I sit on a fence.. I think the safest thing to do is go back to sysVinit for VSIDO, as I do not see anyone getting in that room for solutions I long for

I looked into runit and if I have it right, there would need to be a boatload of scripts created or used to start all of the services needed

So far in my testing I have removed systemd and gone back to sysVinit with the only issues being not able to reboot or shut down from the commands, but that would be an easy fix

Anyone care to look at runit and see how much work there maybe in getting these service scripts in order?  It sounds like a tall leap to me and one I am not quite ready to jump into.. perhaps a cold weather thing I could do

I love this thread and discussions... we have had two users clash in the most civil way I have seen regarding systemd,  you jedi and statmonkey deserve a slap on the back and a 'atta boy',  kennit?

Well done mates, well done

[statmonkey]

I definitely will cede the point that systemd is not the end all, be all solution for Linux.  Hopefully I clarified that in the follow up post.  Linux IS all about choice.

What a quick reminder of why I love this forum.  The fact that dialogue can be exchanged without flames and ego.

It is about choice, control, options and more.  I think I understand where you were/are coming from very well and your post is very gracious.  I am not trying to steer anyone anywhere, what I am trying to present are the reasons that I personally have concerns about systemd and what it means to swallow it whole hog.  If it is acceptable to most people (probably will be) they should understand the medicine they are getting with their spoonful of sugar.  If  knowing all it is acceptable to you that is one thing but buying in under false pretenses and FUD is another.  This is one of the most FUD-filled topics I have ever seen BTW.

...

I looked into runit and if I have it right, there would need to be a boatload of scripts created or used to start all of the services needed

So far in my testing I have removed systemd and gone back to sysVinit with the only issues being not able to reboot or shut down from the commands, but that would be an easy fix

Anyone care to look at runit and see how much work there maybe in getting these service scripts in order?  It sounds like a tall leap to me and one I am not quite ready to jump into.. perhaps a cold weather thing I could do

I love this thread and discussions... we have had two users clash in the most civil way I have seen regarding systemd,  you jedi and statmonkey deserve a slap on the back and a 'atta boy',  kennit?

Well done mates, well done

I will bite and see what runit looks like.  I started playing with it at one time and then got all caught up in Phone/Pebble/AndroidGear stuff and lost track of it.  I am belaying my Moto360 urges just to try and focus on this for now.  That's not easy

It's also been a while since I spoke with any of the non-systemd/upstart folks and wonder what they are up to.  I will send out some feelers.

This is not meant as self-deprecating but just a fact that I think anyone who has taken the time to read these forums knows.  All credit/back slaps got to Jedi.  As always he has shown what a gracious and honorable individual he is in his response.  Besides his initial rant kind of put a hop in my step with some of his assertions 

[zbreaker]

Fantastic discussion people.

Little did I know the gate I was opening when I revived the thread on 8/15/14. And I'm floored by the intelligent sharing of informed viewpoints

[VastOne]

^ Agreed...

What I appreciate most from this small band of ka-tet that we are, is that we are more (much more) than a group with a half of brain.. We seem to fully utilize all that we are capable of, which just simply means we think and rethink when necessary

I am damned glad to be a part of it

[VastOne]

And now a word from our contrarian sponsor.  No offense to anyone intended... this is a discussion.

..and then proceeds to be the ultimate gentleman and presents a perfectly civil response. 

[statmonkey]

^ No kidding.

Then there is this

link might be a double post; lost track of this thread.

I for one, am really waiting to see what path Slackware takes.

Edit - click on the "No Seriously" link in item 2 of the above link and enjoy the read - priceless.

Oh I love that, I mean really ... "Yupp, journal corruptions result in rotation, and when reading we try to make the best of it. they are nothing we really need to fix hence."

So journal corruption is normal.  Think about that.  You have an issue, you need to see what went wrong and then ... oh sorry that just happened to be a journal that got corrupted so you are on your own.  Now multiply that over hundreds of programs and machines writing to the journals, etc.  DISASTER and a realistic disaster as well.

If it ain't fixed then break it as a design philosophy?  Oh, sorry Jedi there's that word again.

PackRat that original link you provided makes some very valid points.  I am slowly working to catch up with all the info in here.  Thanks for posting this.

[jedi]

I think this is a must read thread for everyone in the pursuit of knowledge pertaining to systemd and it's individual impact on each and every Linux user concerned with the future of our Linux.  I am posting the following quote in the hopes that you will read them in sequential order.  Your understanding will be much increased, and that philosophy I had the temerity to disdain will quickly become quite meaningful to ALL Linux users who care about the direction Linux takes.  Regardless of distro, desktop or server!

Then there is this

Edit - click on the "No Seriously" link in item 2 of the above link and enjoy the read - priceless.

Oh man, I love that, I mean really ...

"Yupp, journal corruptions result in rotation, and when reading we try to make the best of it. they are nothing we really need to fix hence."

So journal corruption is normal.  Think about that.  You have an issue, you need to see what went wrong and then ... oh sorry that just happened to be a journal that got corrupted so you are on your own.  Now multiply that over hundreds of programs and machines writing to the journals, etc.  DISASTER and a realistic disaster as well.
If it ain't fixed then break it as a design philosophy?  Oh, sorry Jedi there's that word again.

I have been aware of systemd in some form or fashion for about a year and a half.  VastOne can correct me here, but I believe we decided over the course of last December and through to January, to implement it into VSIDO as the default.  My input to VastOne was mainly the result in relying on the partisan bickering back and forth between the Upstart vs systemd crowd in the Debian Mailing lists.

Steve Langasek, Russ Allbery, Bdale Garbee, Ian Jackson, and yes, I know I'm missing several someones, I followed closely their arguments via the Debian ML's.  However, following for months the arguments for and against systemd vs Upstart, I think our community forgot the most basic precept.  "Keep it simple stupid"...

There were more (way more) init systems being developed that received absolutely no marketing whatsoever, resulting in them not ever even being considered.  Init systems that had been being worked on for years.  For Upstart, the very first fundamental opposition came with it's inclusion of the ridiculous cursed CLA.  For the vast, vast majority in the know, this immediately disqualified Upstart, no matter how well (or bad) it worked.  Other init systems being developed at the time, were 1) not marketed well, if at all, 2) not fully functional or at the very least still needing a lot of work to be seriously considered as an alternative to sysVinit not to mention funding, and 3) the serious FUD campaign that was/is still being waged about a new init system.

My personal belief is that the moment systemd swallowed udev in it's entirety should have been the "writing on the wall" that alerted everyone as to what was coming.  This is only my opinion.

Another bad taste occurred for me when I understood Poettering was the lead dev, (or if not, thought himself to be) as I had memories of Pulse-Audio and all of its awful infighting and bickering resulting in his either walking away from the project, or being asked to.  Arrogance, and an unwillingness to listen to others ideas, be they right or wrong, is a serious indicator of an individuals regard for his fellow developers.  Poettering, if he has any, (regard that is) keeps it well hidden.  A prime example is listed in the above links concerning the journal core dump corruption, and his refusal to even acknowledge a need to even look at it.  A very disconcerting insight into how he treasures his own intellect.

But, then the TC at Debian began with the tirades against one another and how quickly the Upstart team was to totally alienate themselves from the rest.  Understandably, they had been working on an important and consequential technology their distro would quite possibly change the landscape of Linux with.  Ubuntu and Canonical doomed themselves from day 1 as I ascribed above.  CLA, no way.  No matter how well they could have ended up making Upstart, that killed it at birth.  Upstart = stillborn.  Sad.

I climbed aboard with systemd (I am annoyed at myself here, as I had only studied on systemd vs Upstart) due to the ease of implementation on the desktop and the "seemingly" faster boot speeds.  There were other reasons as well.  I tended to try to see the good in systemd simply because they were running such a great marketing campaign in the background the whole time, in order to see it implemented.  I also wanted the argument to go away, as I thought it detrimental to anyone considering Linux, but also seeing the bickering and sometimes vitriolic hatred that emanated from the ML's.  This arguing was being quoted and misquoted on so many, many Linux sites.  (mine is guilty as charged in that regard as well)  It was not a pretty time, and it is getting some more attention even now.

I will be 'pirouetting', a complete 180, on my opinion as to systemd here, and at jedsdesk.com as well.  This comes from a more substantive study of systemd.  Not because someone told me to change my mind.  I read, studied, and came to my own conclusions.  (I write that as I don't want statmonkey to be perceived as an evangelist for sending systemd to Linux hell! philosophically speaking of course!)  His posts, along with PackRat's, and several other respected members of the Linux blogosphere have influenced this decision.

The consequences of systemd being unilaterally, across the board, accepted as the status-quo for init systems in Linux may not be completely disastrous, but I believe that it could be!  The PID1 situation is intolerable.  That the init system alone could hose a system is unacceptable.  The "Keep it Simple Stupid" factor is another "in your face" mud pie that is hard to swallow.  systemd's total disregard of it.  From the programmers point of view, some are talking of just walking away from some really great projects due to dependencies issues with systemd.  (I have to wonder if IG made some of his decisions based on trying to maintain compatibility with systemd) It has become truly monolithic, and IMO made itself almost equally important to Linux as the Kernel.  I will not tolerate a reboot after every update.  A trivial thing for some, but of vast importance to me.  Another, and equally appalling ethos from the systemd team, their open disregard for non-Linux software and subsequent systemd incompatibility with all non-Linux systems. This is an isolationist policy that essentially binds the Linux ecosystem into its own cage, and serves as an obstacle to software portability. (a direct quote from the boycott systemd site) This is a total shock and is in no way acceptable.

I have been a tester for VSIDO since Sept of 2012.  It is the only OS I use.  Yes I distro hop occasionally to witness the bloat of the others, and remind me why I have been with VSIDO since the beginning.  My main goto metal is a beast of a machine.  A laptop that is latest and greatest.  I hope to continue to be an official tester for VSIDO long into the future.  As one of two of VastOne's official testers for his distro, I believe I made an error of judgement in recommending systemd during our testing phase of systemd.  To all the users of VSIDO my apologies.  To VastOne, the biggest apology of all.

While systemd does work as an init system, it also becomes a monster once it is utilized, as it goes on to handle power management, device management, mount points, cron, disk encryption, socket API/inetd, syslog, network configuration, login/session management, readahead, GPT partition discovery, container registration, hostname/locale/time management¹, among other things and, I believe, severely threatens the security of an individuals personal PC.  Imagine the impact on a server running your business!  From a sys-admins pov, the vast amount of things taken over by systemd is an appalling nightmare.  I think from the LAN/WAN perspective, you'd be crazy to implement it.  That Debian, in the end, made the decision they did, is to me now, entirely at odds with everything they've accomplished in their 20 years of (IMO) total Linux desktop domination.

I have only included the references below as you'll see due to the fact that the site I reference in turn references other very important and informative information concerning this daunting caricature of an init system.  statmonkey is right in that it totally disregards the "Linux Philosophy", and not only that, pretty much spits in the face of the "keep it simple stupid" mantra that has been the core of Linux from the beginning.

To statmonkey, a big thanks for making me do some actual footwork rather than jumping on the proverbial bandwagon as I had done.  Consider me "off the wagon"!

References

1: http://boycottsystemd.org/

[statmonkey]

Fine comments Jedi and appreciate your candor as always.

The simple response is ...

   systemd vs upstart was no battle.  For all the reasons Jedi mentions upstart could not even be considered and I think a lot of people got caught up in the noise and fud of the craziness that Debian would even discuss it.

   I am sure there will be lots of interesting additions to this thread and look forward to more debate but my purpose here has been served.  If you understand what systemd is really giving you, what it means and are comfy with that great but I just want to be sure everyone gets what that all means.

I apologize for my lack of diplomacy but it seems we have identified and agreed there is a problem, what is needed are alternatives and a solution.  I have started a thread on runit where I hope we can gather ideas, comments, links etc. I am not in the slightest endorsing runit, it is a place to start.  I have had it recommended to me.  I would hope that if there are other alts that people like or suggestions I would love to hear them.  I don't want to be presumptuous regarding any choices or any input I might have I am just looking at it and will post my thoughts, the more the merrier.

I hope that people here attack finding an alternative with the same passion they went after systemd and upstart 

[VastOne]

Nice waffles jedi!   

You never misled me, I was really following a simple thought that if it was good enough for debian it was good enough for VSIDO

I began my own waffling around the time this thread rekindled on 8-15 and saw the vitriol was even worse than before.  I still think a lot of this is smoke and mirrors and utter bullshit, but I do recognize the need for a change and will do all I can to make it happen

I am seriously thinking of a version 4 release of VSIDO with the 3.16 (from experimental if I have to) kernel and runit when all of this done

[VastOne]

I am just going to quote the first line of this and leave it to you all to read the tutorial...

Like it or not, systemd is here to stay, so we might as well know what to do with it

Understanding and Using Systemd

It is not meant to raise the ire of anyone any higher but to educate...

[jeffreyC]

The following is shamelessly stolen from distrowatch.com, not my own:

31 • Just an init system (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-25 03:55:51 GMT from United States)
If systemd was "just an init system" many users could learn to accept it.
Problem is, with every new release it takes over more functions.
As stated last week, a recent blog rambles about plans to take over package
management for all distros. Guess that means no more *.deb or *.rpm pkgs.
Just *.systemd packages.

I relate it to finding a small red rash on the back of your hand.
It is minor, doesn't really hurt, so you kind of ignore it.
Then you discover the rash has covered your entire arm. Better do something about this.
The next morning you wake up and it has cover both arms and now shoulders.
Left unchecked it will take over your entire body.
Just like systemd is taking over our favorite operating systems.

45 • Some quotes about systemd (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-26 04:07:08 GMT from United States)
Poettering:
"it unifies system objects and their dependencies"
"One goal of systemd is to unify the dispersed Linux landscape"
"trying to gently push everybody towards the same set of basic configuration"
"we'd like to unify the most boring bits where there's really no point at all in being different"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd:
"While systemd has succeeded in its original goals, it's not stopping there".....
"systemd wants to control most, if not all, of the fundamental functional aspects of a Linux system"

So, continuing my analogy from post #31.
You find the simple rash has now covered your head, all your head and facial hair has fallen out.
Good thing is now you don't have to shave, or wash, cut, and comb your hair !
Now you discover most of the people around you all look like you do.

How do like your new system created by systemd ? (er I mean a simple rash)
Such a shame you cannot control it.

[statmonkey]

[sigh] As always PackRat comes in for the win!  Good comments and just to be verbose and flog a dead horse ...

I am just going to quote the first line of this and leave it to you all to read the tutorial...

Like it or not, systemd is here to stay, so we might as well know what to do with it

Understanding and Using Systemd

It is not meant to raise the ire of anyone any higher but to educate...

Great or not so great minds work alike.  I was going to quote the same line and yes, sadly it is the only thing in that post worth reading.  I am still looking for something on systemd that is recent enough and detailed enough to give me a better understanding.  Since the initial wave of posts and frankly my initial playing with it, it has changed a great deal.

45 • Some quotes about systemd (by RollMeAway on 2014-09-26 04:07:08 GMT from United States)
Poettering:
"it unifies system objects and their dependencies"
"One goal of systemd is to unify the dispersed Linux landscape"
"trying to gently push everybody towards the same set of basic configuration"
"we'd like to unify the most boring bits where there's really no point at all in being different"

This is what I am talking about when I suggest that systemd has something to do with the structural/configuration changes of things like lightdm.  I do think that an effort is going to be made to force developers/coders/etc to conform to a set of rules and if they don't conform their crap just won't work. 

Call it a line in the sand, call it progress, call it whatever.  Look these are not random changes, I think I get it.  I know my frustrations with certain maintainers and dev's (I only wish one of them could read so they would know I was talking about them) who when they build a package decide that they would like the user config files in /opt and not in /usr/share/ or even completely outside the /usr file structure.  How many times have you had to waste an hour or two looking for where a package could be adjusted/config'd/started from (dropbox anyone?). 

The problem is that in the open source community there are a great many brilliant people, they all have ideas of what the best practices are and because there are no rules they all use their own rules and fervently believe that their rules should be THE rules.  This is of course chaos.  But with android and it's SDK the google gnomes have shown that you can still be open source and have a set of rules and people will work within those and it will be more orderly and less chaotic.  Yes, yes I know we have long had our cake and been able to eat it too but I believe that some degree of order will make Linux more not less usable.  Regardless, arguments for and against are moot this is happening. Don't shoot me I am just saying what I see, not what I agree with.  Systemd is going to be used to do away with the "Ministry of Silly Walks" and random attacks by guys with banana's.  I think we are seeing the first shots across the bow.  Systemd is just not going to "see" the configuration files of your app unless it is sitting somewhere in a defined range of locations and conforms to certain rules.  It just won't start your service and in the future if you want to be in you are going to have to meet those rules.  But they are not going to be dictatorial enough to tell you that, you can still get your stuff to work, it will still install it just will loose (for now) flexibility for the user if you are not playing by the rules.  Once people get on board and they have some momentum I think they will lay the rules out clearly and with finality.  Politically they have just pissed too many people off and they are treading lightly (well sort of

That is my theory anyway.

As PackRat says it could lead to a lot of tail chasing but for me I really want to understand systemd and that is the direction I am headed because like it or not it is here.

But it's a lovely day, there are killer races at Belmont all day long and I think I'll let the dust settle, relax and enjoy a super Saturday.  Especially after having this brain fart out of the way.  If things settle down a little more in the Debian world while I am at it so much the better.

[VastOne]

^ ... and then there is this reality that puts everything in perspective IMO

Am I going to die?

Am I being fair?  Of course not... but like statmonkey's need for a calm day and great races, I have been thinking a lot lately about the 3 patterns of inner peace and acceptance...

A need for forgiveness...
A need to be remembered...
A need to know if my life has had meaning...

Not fair at all... BUT... in reality systemd init systems really are not all that important

Watch the video anyway ... it has a powerful message

Have a great day at the races statmonkey!

PackRat... catch that lunker!

Jedi ... go climb a mountain!