Never understood why America (Americans) love the guns so much? The disasters keep happening again and again?
"Yes, and how many deaths will it take 'til he knows
That too many people have died?"
Many in the forums are americans and I would love to get their views on this topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umpqua_Community_College_shooting
while crime is everywhere. These mass shootings are mostly occurring in the suburban areas. Places where they raise their kids up with guns and take them hunting at 9 years old.
"Never understood why America (Americans) love the guns so much?"
It is called STUPIDITY. Similar to Indians letting people starve while cattle thrive to the extent of being a nuissance, or the English worshiping royalty, the greatest symbol of class inequality in history, or everyone in the world hating Jews, or Moslems thinking something great awaits them if they do a suicide bombing, etc, etc. No shortage of stupidity anywhere!
An armed population is difficult to over throw, a measure against tyranny. Europe, Asia, South America, Africa, Middle East, and Baltic nations have all seen their fair share of tyrants. They were all unarmed. Disarming is first step to slavery.
Yes you knew if I said something it would turn into a novella! And, I was raised in the country (i.e. suburb) and got my first gun around the age of six, and was hunting with supervision almost immediately. This has not made me more likely to commit an atrocity...
OK, I'll jump in. This is a loaded thread, no pun intended. I am an American, and I believe every one of us have the right to own a gun. I will state my case below;
Americans love guns because the "Founding Fathers" of our Nation saw gun ownership as a way of repelling tyranny and guaranteeing our liberty. In over 200 years as a Nation, we've never had to worry about someone overthrowing the government, or taking away our liberties. (though currently that is questionable) The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution guarantee's this. Yes some will claim that the 2nd Amendment was aimed (again, no pun intended) at keeping an armed militia. This is untrue. It specifically states, "the individual right to bear arms".
Laws aimed at taking away your guns only effect the rights of the law abiding citizen. Criminals are never going to be without their guns, no matter how many "gun control" laws are passed. Passing a law does not magically make all the guns disappear. Thank God. Unfortunately, in our free society, this means that occasionally a "crazy" person is going to get hold of a weapon. Be it a gun, or a knife, a club, a car, an ice-pick or a hammer, a machete, etc. We are not the only nation on earth that has mass shootings and killings, or, for that matter, murder. (Take a look at what is happening just south of the American border in Mexico!)
Almost (I said, ALMOST) every time you hear of something like what tragically happened in Umpqua Oregon, you are talking about a "gun free zone". The crazies and the criminals know these places are a "gun free zone". Had there been just one armed citizen at Umpqua that day, there would not have been nearly so many deaths. The guns in this instance were all legally obtained firearms. The shooter however, was a known "odd fellow" with "mental illness issues" by family members and others around him. Sadly, another mentally ill person with access to guns. When you find a shooter, or mass killer of any kind for that matter, that has survived one of these atrocities they will always tell authorities they chose the spot because they KNEW no one would try to stop them. They knew no one would be able to defend themselves. (The Aurora Colorado theater shooter, as well as the Fort Hood shooter both stated this. Yes, even on a military base, as stupid as that is, the soldiers were not allowed to carry their sidearms. This is also true of the Norfolk Navy Yard shooter. They all intentionally chose "gun free zones")
In every state in the U.S., and every Nation on Earth that has banned the citizens from being able to own firearms, the rate of crime, and especially "violent crime" rises. In every community in America where the citizens are armed and able to carry a weapon, the crime rate is lower. Statistically, this should speak for itself. If a criminal or a crazy person knows that a place has armed citizens, they will purposefully avoid that area. This has been proven all over America. In my state, Maine, we can carry a concealed weapon as long as we are not a felon, and have no history of mental illness. (a convicted criminal that has been found guilty of a felony, or known mentally ill individual) In Maine, we have a very low crime rate, and an even lower "violent" crime rate. Another example would be the police chief of Detroit, Michigan encouraging the public to buy GUNS. The crime rate has dropped over 50%!
In a society where citizens are not permitted to own guns, it is guaranteed that the only person with a gun will be a criminal! This is not a society I would want to live in. In an America with guns, we are guaranteed the right to defend ourselves, and our liberty. Our Constitution guarantees these "inalienable rights". An "inalienable right" is something that EVERY man, woman, and child on this planet are born with, not granted nor given. Born with! As I mentioned before, the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution GUARANTEE'S that to EVERY American. This is part of the reason why more people migrate/immigrate to America than any other Nation on the planet. Because of these "inalienable rights". Having guns means no one can take those "inalienable rights" away from me. EVERY person in the World has these "inalienable rights", no matter what their government says.
From Google:
"Inalienable. Not subject to sale or transfer; inseparable. That which is inalienable cannot be bought, sold, or transferred from one individual to another. The personal rights to life and liberty guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States are inalienable."
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both." Benjamin Franklin
Old Ben's statement has proven true for more than a few Nations. Thankfully, we as Americans are not there yet. Our current government is doing their level best to try and take these "inalienable rights". They will loudly lie to the American public, every time one of these atrocities happens for their personal political gains. Sickening. There is a reason politicians want to take away your guns. They know that would GUARANTEE their status in our then, not so free, society.
These are my personal feelings and views on this matter and in no way are they meant to be representative, or reflect, the views of VSIDO or the VSIDO forums!
@ jedi: Thank you for going right to the core, and to the aspirations and ideas that I also share. We were raised similar with guns, never shot anything for sport or thrill.
"When the government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
-- Thomas Jefferson.
"They that would give up essential liberty for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Being an American carries responsibilities, stay ever vigilant.
QuoteThe shooter however, was a known "odd fellow" with "mental illness issues" by family members and others around him.
This is usually the common denominator that is not being addressed in the aftermath of these shootings. There were major changes in the way the US deals with the mentally ill in the late 70's early 80's. It doesn't help that we (USA) have -
1. Political parties and their apperatchiks that prefer agitprop to political rhetoric to fire up their base voters
2. A media more than willing to sensationalize the event for socio-political gain
Since the shooter usually stays around until the police shows up, it cannot be dismissed that these shootings are spectacularly melodramitic suicides.
I will be brief, just want to let the non-Americans among the readers of this forum to know that the viewpoint expressed by Mr. Jedi is an extreme view not held by most Americans (over 70% want more controls on gun ownership and 58% do not have a gun in their home). I am an American who has never possessed a gun (prefer laptops to guns) and who does not buy into any of Mr. Jedi's concocted arguments about personal ownership of guns
repelling tyranny and guaranteeing liberty. This is 2015, not 1815, and the population of the country is about 320 million, not 8 million, and the government and police have weapons unimaginably more efficient than guns. Think about it.
The problem in my mind is simply one of numbers. There are too many guns too easily accessed created by the good-old American free enterprise system: "He who dies with the most toys wins!" Unfortunately, guns are one of the "toys" pushed on us, and too many people are too stupid to resist accumulating these useless toys, not to mention being brain washed by the National Rifle Association and the gun manufactures to accumulate them.
I will go one step further seppalta... and I will respond more to this later, I need to get over how angry I am right now about this thread...
Jed is my best friend, he is an incredible human being... BUT, we do not see eye to eye on this at all. I am so disgusted with the GOP and how they use the death of people to create a revolution and not look at what the fuck is happening to this country
I will never get my best friend to change this view.. it is how powerful it is...
13 guns? The fucking people who wrote all the shit we still live by also said it was ok to have a fucking slave...
We can and will always stand against anyone who would try to destroy us... It will happen with or without guns...
13 GUNS?
I call bullshit to it all
And now I need to go golf
To be fair to VastOne, we are indeed best friends. We are also both Americans. Because of being Americans, we can be best friends and still have totally opposite and opposing views on a myriad of different subjects.
When this thread started, I did voice my opposition to it. I wanted to delete it. It is a very charged and politically incorrect subject to talk about. Discourse on the subject tends to be EXTREME! I was 'encouraged' to let the thread play itself out. I commented to VastOne that I'd just ignore it. He laughed at me! Friends who, indeed, know each other well! :)
Actually we should all read the Constitution and the Amendments to it as a duty of being an American. Not that I ever disagree with VastOne, but the slavery thing -
The following is directly quoted from the Things that aren't in the Constitution (http://www.usconstitution.net/constnot.html) website;
Slavery
Originally, the Framers of the Constitution were very careful about avoiding the words "slave" and "slavery" in the text of the Constitution. Instead, they used phrases like "importation of Persons" at Article 1, Section 9 for the slave trade, "other persons" at Article 1, Section 2, and "person held to service or labor" at Article 4, Section 2 for slaves. Not until the 13th Amendment was slavery mentioned specifically in the Constitution. There the term was used to ensure that there was to be no ambiguity as what exactly the words were eliminating. In the 14th Amendment, the euphemism "other persons" (and the three-fifths value given a slave) was eliminated.
Also some claim all the time that "God" was part of that document. This is entirely false as "He" isn't mentioned once! The notable exception is found in the Signatory section, where the date is written thusly: "Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven". The use of the word "Lord" here is not a religious reference, however. This was a common way of expressing the date, in both religious and secular contexts.
Anyway, that isn't what this thread is about. I wanted to specifically respond to seppalta. The idea that I'm 'extreme' in my views, was frankly a little upsetting to me and got me thinking "Am I Extreme"? I quickly decided "no"! ISIS is extreme. I'm about as far from extreme as one can get! So here goes...
Quote from: jedi on October 03, 2015, 01:25:44 AM
These are my personal feelings and views on this matter and in no way are they meant to be representative, or reflect, the views of VSIDO or the VSIDO forums!
Quote from: seppalta on October 03, 2015, 04:56:46 PM
the viewpoint expressed by Mr. Jedi is an extreme view not held by most Americans (over 70% want more controls on gun ownership and 58% do not have a gun in their home)
Actually 68% of Americans claim they have no guns. (Gallup)
As to the laughable statistic quoted of 70% wanting more gun control, that number in reality is 47% that say they'd like more strict laws, while up to 52% say less strict or stay the same! (also Gallup)
However, what is TRUE about gun ownership - Only about 12 percent of civilian weapons are thought to be registered with authorities. So my thinking is that WAY MORE than 32% of Americans have guns.
Quote from: seppalta on October 03, 2015, 04:56:46 PM
and the government and police have weapons unimaginably more efficient than guns. Think about it.
and per gallup;
Do you think there should or should not be a law that would ban the possession of handguns, except by the police and other authorized persons?
yes should be - 26%
NO SHOULD NOT BE - 73%
(can you imagine living somewhere where only the police, the approved government officials, i.e. agents of said government or military, and finally, CRIMINALS were the only ones with guns? Now that folks, is very scary indeed!)
and last but certainly far from being least on seppalta's claims;
Quote from: seppalta on October 03, 2015, 04:56:46 PM
The problem in my mind is simply one of numbers. There are too many guns too easily accessed created by the good-old American free enterprise system: "He who dies with the most toys wins!" Unfortunately, guns are one of the "toys" pushed on us, and too many people are too stupid to resist accumulating these useless toys, not to mention being brain washed by the National Rifle Association and the gun manufactures to accumulate them.
China dwarfs America in the production of guns. Next is Russia. The last time I checked on the statistics of where in the world guns are made, America wasn't even in the top 5!
The "TOY" statement is especially offensive. Any person who considers a gun a TOY has no business owning a gun ever, period! I've NEVER been around other gun owners who called a gun a toy, and if so, I'd never be around them again. Guns are definitely not on the list of "TOYS" unless we're classifying squirt-guns in there. As far as "guns are one of the "'TOYS'" pushed on us" claim? When was the last time anyone in America saw a commercial about a gun and how you NEED to buy it now!? Simply false!
I'm not certain, but is it even legal to advertise guns? Like cigarettes I believe you can not advertise them for sale in most media, and further more, what liberal media outlet would even let a manufacturer of guns advertise them for sell?
As to the final claim about the NRA (National Rifle Association) I am not, nor have ever been a member. I don't have any particular feelings about the NRA, I'm just not really a joiner. I know over the last couple of years they've made some ridiculous statements, and offensive ones at that. As to their "brain washing" abilities, I can't speak to that. I'm of the opinion that if you can be "brain washed" you probably should be the last person on Earth to have a firearm!
This from the Reuters news service;
The United States has 90 guns for every 100 citizens, easily making it the most heavily armed society in the world.
U.S. citizens own 270 million of the world's 875 million known firearms, according to the Small Arms Survey 2007 by the Geneva-based Graduate Institute of International Studies.
About 4.5 million of the 8 million new guns manufactured worldwide each year are purchased in the United States, it said.
"There is roughly one firearm for every seven people worldwide. Without the United States, though, this drops to about one firearm per 10 people," it said.
The following statement PROVES what gunless societies end up as:
India had the world's second-largest civilian gun arsenal, with an estimated 46 million firearms outside law enforcement and the military, though this represented just four guns per 100 people there. China, ranked third with 40 million privately held guns, had 3 firearms per 100 people.
It gets much worse;
Nigeria, for instance, has just one gun per 100 people. Anyone immigrating to Nigeria? I'm not saying that to be offensive, just stating a FACT. A society without guns is more than 90% more likely to be a society living in fear of their fellow man and/or their own government.
For more NON-American based numbers and statistics, I'd recommend the "Small Arms Survey" site out of Geneva, Switzerland. It is at http://www.smallarmssurvey.org.
For those of you who are curious, I personally do own guns. I personally have also lost 5 immediate family members to murder, specifically murdered with guns. I do not blame the guns. The people who committed these murders would have done so with or without guns.
On no other website except for Twitter-Facebook I've been as active as VSIDO forums. Other regulars of this forums are like friends to me and it was not my intention to hurt the feelings of anyone. Murders and violent crimes can't be prevented alltogether by any law but fighting against gun crimes by guns doesn't make any sense. Anyways here is something I watched to find some answers,
Quote from: jedi on October 03, 2015, 08:27:54 PM...I personally have also lost 5 immediate family members to murder, specifically murdered with guns...
I'm really sorry to know this. As I said in my last post it wasn't my intention to hurt any feelings or stir up a hornet's nest. I wanted to know the genuine viewpoints of American's on this sensitive issue. At the end of the day we all are friends (whether we are American or not) and friends agree to disagree.
@hackerdefo - Michael Moore is a propagandist and Bowling for Columbine uses staged and edited sequences. It's political satire, not a documentary.
@hakerdefoe, no one here is angry at you! :) You have offended no one! What you chose to watch, in "Bowling For Columbine" is a testament to how easy it is to mislead the American public and the world at large. Please examine the following: The Truth About "Bowling For Columbine" (http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html)
"Viewer Beware" (http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html)
"The Ugly Truth About Bowling For Columbine: The 'Fact Free' Documentary! (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/873740/posts)
Quote from: hakerdefo on October 03, 2015, 08:37:53 PM
Murders and violent crimes can't be prevented alltogether by any law but fighting against gun crimes by guns doesn't make any sense. Anyways here is something I watched to find some answers,
No hornets nests here! Seriously! :)
I do have a serious question though. When the only people committing gun crimes are the only people that have the guns, what then?
Quote from: PackRat on October 03, 2015, 08:52:59 PM...It's political satire, not a documentary.
Really? May be some parts might have been edited to make it more easy to follow but does that make it a work of fiction? Didn't it win awards in 'documentary' category at Cannes and the Oscars? Do they give best documentary awards to work of fictions & satires?
@PackRat & @Jedi I came across this article in defense of Michael Moore and his documntary by Erik Möller, Deputy Director of Wikimedia Foundation.
http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607
Although his movies are based on real events, he uses a lot of selective editing and distortion to make his points. Although not entirely fiction, most - if not all - of his films do not stand up to rigorous fact checking - do a search of fact checking for his movies and you'll have no shortage of hits. There has actually been criticism of him for submitting his films to the various film institutes as documentaries. As far as winning an Oscar goes, that ceremony has always (meaning as long as I have been alive to notice) been criticized for politicizing some of it's awards.
Michael Moore does raise some valid issues that merit discussion - the venue he has chosen for making his points tends to be disengenuous though.
Quote from: hakerdefo on October 03, 2015, 10:52:39 PM
@PackRat & @Jedi I came across this article in defense of Michael Moore and his documntary by Erik Möller, Deputy Director of Wikimedia Foundation.
Yes, and we all know how accurate a lot of his wiki's are! :) I'm definitely in PackRat's corner on this one.
Some really great comments after his rant though;
Quote
[snip]
Christ, it's a damn movie. It would take me longer to read this than watch the thing.
-1.
[snip]
Moore doesn't present an accurate portrayal. It's like saying that CNN and FOX accurately report the news. No, Mr. Moore presents clips to fit his audience's viewpoint. Presenting a "popular" viewpoint puts butts in seats. Do you really thing that Micheal Moore does what he does simply out of a desire to perform public services?
Heh. That wasn't for Eloquence's (Erik Möller) sake; that's for those of y'all who actually take Micheal Moore seriously.
[snip]
Good movie, maybe deserved an Oscar, but it was not a documentary.
[snip]
You're saying that Moore's film deserves to be an award-winning "documentary" because his specific semantics, when interpreted a certain way, dance just this side of the edge of the truth? There's a reason there's an op-ed section of newspapers, separate from the normal reporting sections. Documentaries should not use tricks of the camera or time-scale exaggerations to make a specific political point. To do so is disingenuous, and not in a documentary style.
The Academy should be ashamed, and Moore should be ashamed for allowing his edutainment to be so grossly miscategorized.
You spend a large portion of the text arguing against Hardy by saying that Moore had a point. Of course he had a point. That doesn't make the film a documentary. It merely makes it interesting.
[snip]
I've seen less logical gymnastics coming from a strict creationist.
Moore's film was entertaining and had a generally good message -- that we need to look at ourselves and ask "why are we so violent?" But his means were full of lies, distortions and editing tricks that do not belong in a documentary.
For reference, let's use the definition of "documentary," which is "Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film." Moore did not come close to achieving this goal.
10 days are more than enough to give advance warning of a change in location or date, had the NRA really wanted to
This shows the extent to which you are willing to go to excuse Moore. You do not tell that many people to change vacation plans, work schedules and flight reservations in 10 days. The most you can expect is to cut out all festivities and events, leaving only the required meeting -- which the NRA did. No one would have noticed the NRA being in town had the mayor not decided to use the visit for political gain.
I think the best scene in the movie was with Marilyn Manson who, when asked what he would have said to the Columbine kids if given a chance, said "I wouldn't say a single word to them. I would listen to what they have to say and that's what no one did."
[end of snips]
OK, back to reallity, I never thought I'd find myself in agreement with anything Mayilyn Manson espoused, much less consider it to be genius. However, what he says in that last comment in his interview in the "movie" about talking to the kids at Columbine is totally on point.
@hakerdefoe, I didn't mean anything by criticizing "Bowling For Columbine", I was just wanting to point out that if you were using that "movie" to base your factual decisions on, concerning something of such import, then you should at least see what the other side has to say about Michael Moore. The three links in my above post do just that.
I suppose, in the "big picture" view, the story about "America and the love for guns" is for me, easily summed up with this; America has been armed to the teeth since escaping tyranny more than 300 years ago. Short of turning America into a dictatorial state, and physically taking the guns from everyone, you'll never see a totally unarmed America. At least in my lifetime. Because of this, there exists a valid reason for the public to be, and remain, armed. Sadly, until we live in Utopia, there will always be the need for a weapon. If a man invades my home in the dead of night (or any time of day or night) with a gun, (even just his bare hands, or any other type of weapon) with the intent to do me and mine harm, I will vigorously and vociferously continue to own a gun, and certainly not hesitate to defend myself and my family with it.
Oh yeah, one more thing! :) (what you all thought I was done?) ???
As far as "mass shootings" go, America isn't even in the top 5! And as for mass school shootings, it isn't just an "American" thing, or synonymous even, with America. Of the top 20 school shootings ever, 13 were NOT in the U.S.!
(http://en.zimagez.com/miniature/top20schoolshootings.jpg) (http://en.zimagez.com/zimage/top20schoolshootings.php)
One thing that is synonymous with "mass shootings", is madmen or crazy or mentally ill. Good luck keeping a weapon out of the hands of a determined madman...
Quote from: jedi on October 03, 2015, 09:05:47 PM
I do have a serious question though. When the only people committing gun crimes are the only people that have the guns, what then?
Criminals will be criminals with or without the guns but 12-13 year old kids (youngest was a six year old child) won't go on shooting their classmates.
America has experienced at least 28 school shootings since 1999 resulting in deaths of a total of 127 victims. No other country comes close to this numbers. No other country in this time period had more than 3 school shootings. Between 2000-2010, 23 countries other than US had incidents resulting in death on the school grounds. The number of total deaths resulting from such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 23 countries put together!
Quote from: jedi on October 03, 2015, 01:25:44 AM...In over 200 years as a Nation, we've never had to worry about someone overthrowing the government, or taking away our liberties...
Quote from: jedi on October 04, 2015, 01:52:19 AM...If a man invades my home in the dead of night (or any time of day or night) with a gun, (even just his bare hands, or any other type of weapon) with the intent to do me and mine harm, I will vigorously and vociferously continue to own a gun, and certainly not hesitate to defend myself and my family with it.
Moore's documentary whether fact or fiction concludes that FEAR is woven into the fabric of American society. Fear leads to guns. The combinaion of guns & fear ends-up in mass shootings and violent crimes. jedi's comments quoted above make me feel that after all Michael Moore could be right about the FEAR.
EDIT:- A question came to me. If the hypothesis of 'FEAR woven into the fabric of American society' is true, where does that fear come from? What is the origin of this fear? American society has a history of injustice & oppression of Native Americans-African Americans-Mexicans. Any and every civilised society sooner or later feel the guilt for it's wrong doings. This feeling of guilt consciously or subconsciously always demands punishment. Origin of FEAR lies in the punishment that the guilt demands.
Quote from: hakerdefo on October 04, 2015, 10:45:36 AM
... FEAR is woven into the fabric of American society.
I only speak to my own feelings. Today guns are everywhere in America. Teachers have them, go to a restaurant and somebody in a nearby booth will be openly packing a revolver, the police are so weighted down with special military-style armaments that they can barely move, etc. I purposely avoid big crowds and do as much shopping as possible online to avoid crowded stores, prime areas for mass shooters. I suppose Mr. Jedi will say that if I don't like it here so much, move somewhere else, the same alternative occasionally offered to German Jews in the 1930's. My answer is I would except other considerations, such as being almost 80 years old, make that very impractical.
I remember being in Zurich, Switzerland sitting on the river bank watching some birds. An old lady in a second floor apartment opened a window and yelled at me while waving a paper bag, which was clearly not terribly threatening. We were not able to communicate very well - I thought she was offering me a treat for the birds, but it finally became clear that it was for me, apparently I looked a bit bedraggled. I graciously accepted -- the best piece of cheese and pastry that I have ever eaten. My point is that had that been in America today (It has not always been like this!), I would have gotten a warning (if I was lucky) gunshot and told to move on.
I did encounter one extreme danger in Europe. Everyone there tried to kill me with good chocolate. Luckily, I escaped before choking to death!
Just wanted to add my 2C for what it's worth.
Down on the other side of the planet, isolated as we Aussies are on our own large island and with very strict gun laws doesn't mean we don't still have gun violence. And I don't think a society can stop violence completely. But having less guns certainly helps and having better control/management of gun owners helps too. Even out here in the middle of nowhere we can't plug all the holes to stop illegal trade.
@seppalta - death by chocolate! Sweet choice! ;)
Thanks for the input, ozitraveller. Reminded me of the following: australia (http://mic.com/articles/123049/19-years-after-passing-strict-gun-control-laws-here-s-what-happened-in-australia)
And I agree, death from a chocolate overdose would not be too bad, but, please, do not tell our state death penalty administrators. They are dispirit to find new ways to kill.
Hi seppalta
I remember it very well. It was at an historic penal settlement in Port Arthur. It was for the worst of the worst prisoners. And yes you are correct it was the point that gun laws changed.
But no laws can stop things like this. Random acts of violence. We just have to get better at weeding the rogues out.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-03/nsw-police-headquarters-gunman-was-radicalised-youth/6825028
http://www.9news.com.au/national/2015/10/02/17/01/two-feared-shot-in-parramatta-in-sydney-s-west
And there are still more people killed in cars than with guns, at least here, anyway.
Quote from: seppalta on October 04, 2015, 08:29:55 PM...My point is that had that been in America today (It has not always been like this!), I would have gotten a warning (if I was lucky) gunshot and told to move...
A friend who has emigrated to America once told me that he absolutely avoided situations that might involve looking for an address as mistakenly entering a wrong premise could get him shot or killed in America. I thought he was exaggerating so I searched Google and found that half of the states in America have something called 'castle law' which allows landowners to injure, shoot, even kill those violating their property without any legal restraints. You can google 'Death of Yoshihiro Hattori' and you will be surprised and shocked. What caused death (read murder) of Yoshihiro Hattori?
FEAR+GUN
In Montana we have the infamous "castle law", and recently had an incident similar to what happened to Yoshihiro Hattori. However, we still have a few sane judges and the killer was found guilty: BBC (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-31447685). With guns available almost everywhere to almost everyone, people buy them like toys, and then otherwise perfectly sane people, armed with a gun, become vigilantes who determine right from wrong and set out to enforce their idea of right. It makes a scary society and certainly not one wanted by reasonable people.
# sudo apt-get install police and save me && sudo apt-get autoremove criminal --purge
There, everybody should be good to go, no thanks necessary.
So I'm extreme in my views.
I've concocted all of these arguments/opinions.
I'm in fear.
And last but certainly not least, I'm a *^&$ing NAZI?
WTF?
I am not a member of any political party, certainly not the corrupt GOP, but it was the president himself that took to his bully pulpit as soon as the Umpqua event, and was followed by most in his Democrat caucus. Not mentioning one time his own home town of Chicago which has turned into a war-zone of it's own, and has been for several years now. More people dead there from "GUNSHOT" in the last 2 weeks than in the last couple of mass shootings anywhere! He hasn't mentioned that ONCE! Political expediency indeed...
In my immediate family there are at least 3 times the number of guns owned as has been recovered from that lunatic in Oregon. (brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles) And with 5 murders in our immediate family, why wouldn't we have guns? Are you kidding me?
If we're to stand against those who would want to destroy us, with or without guns, are we to stand there like a paper target, or would you rather have a gun to even up the odds a bit?
Quote from: hakerdefoeFighting against gun crimes with guns doesn't make any sense
What? So the guy is coming at you with a gun, the nearest cop is 40 miles away, what are you gonna fight back with? Just curl up in a little ball and go gently into that good night? Whatever!
Quote from: PackRatMichael Moore is a propagandist and Bowling for Columbine uses staged and edited sequences. It's political satire, not a documentary.
Finally some sense!
Quote from: hakerdefoeReally? May be some parts might have been edited to make it more easy to follow but does that make it a work of fiction? Didn't it win awards in 'documentary' category at Cannes and the Oscars? Do they give best documentary awards to work of fictions & satires?
Yep, they've (Hollywood) been doing it for almost a century now! Over and over and over. Do you suppose all those Hollywood bigshot actors, directors, producers, and Washington D.C. politicians want to take away all the guns, or just the other guys guns? Are they going to suddenly go without their own 'Secret Service' or personal protection details? Are they going to remove the guns their bodyguards carry that are protecting their kids in their schools? There is absolutely no way they will, or would. And who can blame them? HOWEVER, what is good for them should also be good for the rest of us. Do you think that Michael Moore, who's net worth is over 50 million dollars thanks to his sickening so called documentaries, is going to have his personal protection detail suddenly give up their guns? How assinine. The same goes for the politicians in Australia and Great Britain. Do you suppose that even after they've forcefully taken all of your guns, that their people don't have guns? And now that you don't have your guns, I wonder why they need theirs? How naive.
Quote from: jediI do have a serious question though. When the only people committing gun crimes are the only people that have the guns, what then?
Quote from: hakerdefoeCriminals will be criminals with or without the guns but 12-13 year old kids (youngest was a six year old child) won't go on shooting their classmates.
America has experienced at least 28 school shootings since 1999 resulting in deaths of a total of 127 victims. No other country comes close to this numbers. No other country in this time period had more than 3 school shootings. Between 2000-2010, 23 countries other than US had incidents resulting in death on the school grounds. The number of total deaths resulting from such incidents in the US was only one less than in all the other 23 countries put together!
A perfect example of refusing to answer a question! And one more thing hakerdefoe, your conveniently leaving out the events in Oslo, Norway where Anders Behring Brevik in two attacks in one day killed 77 people (mostly kids, I think, something like 69 of them?) and injured another 319. Last year in Peshawar, Pakistan 145 dead including 132 school kids. Those two instances DWARF what has happened in America!
These are the facts.
Beslan, Russia 2004 - 385 killed 783 injured over a 4 day period.
Peshawar, Pakistan 2014 - 145 killed (132 children) 114 injured. Both of these events happened at schools.
I'll stop with those two. Since 1927 in America, 262 dead in aprx. 35 school shootings. I'm sorry, I'm not sure of those 262 how many were children. That is almost a century.
Whether they died from radical Islamic terrorists or one single lunatic madman, they were all killed at school. One of the places a child should feel they are the safest, next to being at home. While school shootings are tragic and life altering events, this thread was not started specifically asking about where and how many children died in school shootings. It was started with a question concerning how we Americans felt about gun ownership/love of guns. Because I as an American believe profoundly in the right to own a gun, does not mean that I'm "for" school shootings. That is an absurdity, and to compare the two is offensive and beyond the pale.
Quote from: hakerdefoeMoore's documentary whether fact or fiction concludes that FEAR is woven into the fabric of American society. Fear leads to guns and guns to mass shootings. And jedi's comments quoted above make me feel that afterall Michael Moore could be right.
Whether fact or fiction? Fear leads to guns, and guns lead to mass shootings? Sorry, but this is idiotic. If what you say is true, then extrapolating would mean millions of deaths in America due to mass shootings alone! A really moronic statement.
Because I own guns, I am fearful? Another truly uninformed statement. I believe one could say that true fear would be watching a person with a gun coming at you and you've no way to defend or protect yourself. That my friend would be my definition of fear!
As to seppalta's FEAR about seeing all those guns displayed, I'd think your fear would be better placed in considering the guns you don't see. I'd be thankful about the fellow in the booth next to me carrying a handgun. He'd be the guy I'd be hiding behind were I in your shoes and a criminal or crazy person came into the restaurant brandishing a gun (or machette, or chainsaw) claiming he/she was going to kill everyone there. That fellow in the booth may just save your life! I am all for that teacher having a gun! Imagine if that professor at Umpqua had been carrying a gun. Things may well have turned out quite differently than they did on that day. As it happens, the lunatic who shot him first had the temerity to tell him he'd been waiting years to do just what he did. Those few seconds could have saved some lives had "that teacher" had a gun.
Quote from: seppaltaI suppose Mr. Jedi will say that if I don't like it here so much, move somewhere else, the same alternative occasionally offered to German Jews in the 1930's.
This is why I encouraged that this thread be halted at the very beginning. You sir, are comparing or equating me to a nazi? Probably the most offensive thing anyone has ever said to me or about me. If your 80 years old, then you're well aware that it was Americans with their guns that liberated the first concentration camps at the end of WWII, freeing said jews. I seriously doubt that you've ever had a bullet fired at you in warning, though it would explain your extreme fear and loathing of guns. If that has happened to you then I'm sorry for that traumatic event as I can't imagine how terrifying that would be. Truly!
Your rudeness and lack of civility in comparing me to a nazi is totally uncalled for, and I would suggest that it would also mean your adding a Mr. in front of my monniker has been done not out of respect, but rather in mocking disparragment. I'm simply Jed. No mister is required.
Your propensity for avoiding large crowds, and shopping online due to your "fear" (fear without a gun?) of those places being, "prime areas for mass shootings", is indicative of your troubling lack of knoweledge concerning mass shootings. Your more likely to get struck by lightning on your way out to get your newspaper, and then on your way back into your home, getting struck again. It is a very lame argument.
And yes, cars kill more people than guns. By a long shot! Maybe we should ban cars too. Or fatty foods, or ladders, or water, or I know, fast food restaurants etc etc etc.
I've tried in all my posts here to be constructive, respectful, and kind, even when not in agreement with my friends here who have a different opinion than my own. Calling me a nazi? Comparing me to a nazi? Well, VastOne, you are not the only "pissed off" guy here now! Perhaps I'll return later. I can't play golf.
For anyone I've offended, I truly am sorry, but you asked me as an American how I felt about one of my "inalienable rights"! And now you know...
ciao
Unfortunately this is why I have tried to keep these types of threads away from these forums and to not have any kind of 'Free to talk anything' area...
I should have nipped this in the bud from the beginning, but I am not King nor do I want to be one. I apologize to Jed for not allowing him to delete this from the beginning, but I am shocked at how it became his forum to preach to us about guns and protecting us and our rights. Having said that, to answer the initial question of this thread, Americans are deeply divided on this and a multitude of critically important issues we are facing right now. Personally, I fear a civil uprising that will not be pretty at all
I want only to deal with the realities of FOSS and trying to build something someone could use. I am going to close this thread now but will keep it all here as a lesson to anyone... Even the simplest differences can cause a monumental collapse on levels you would not expect to happen in our environment. We are not democratic at all...
I apologize to everyone here who I have offended
Terry aka VastOne
PM me if you have any further need of me